Question Problems with vassal Control calculations

[Testeris010]

Control calculations seems to be not really correct. Currently every vassal civilian need 1 guard, which seems extremely excessive.
There is many places in SimSettlementsConquer:ResourceManager that contributes to this problem.

In RecalculateOutpostData() resources (Rations, Wages, Equipment) is counted when counting NPCs using plot level and then added to resources returned by calling GetWages, GetRations, GetEquipment. Thous functions count respective active plots and levels. So resulting resources is doubled.

On top of that each of this functions add morale multiplayer and vassal multiplayer, where fMultiplier = 1 + MoralBonus + Vassalbonus(1.2) so this multiplayer always is between 2.2 and 3.2

So every plot produce resources between (ResourcePerLevel*Level*3.2) and (ResourcePerLevel*Level*4.2)

For lvl3 plot its between 15*3.2=48 and 15*4.2= 63 what equates the same amount ControlNeeded.

On other hand 1 guard raider recruiter generates 50 control, 25(base soldier) * 2 (guard multiplayer)

There is some other problematic places, like CalculateMoraleGenerated() is called before newly counted population data is saved to OutpostDataStore so the data is calculated based on old counts. Also fCurrentOutpost_ControlPercentage is calculated before fCurrentOutpost_ControlNeeds is calculated. And some other places.

As suggestions.
As i see , control should be based on guard/civilian proportion instead of resource plot lvl. It does no matter if farmer farms 2 or 10 melons it is still 1 farmer.
On other hand guard post level should matter, because guard in concrete bunker with automated turrets can exert more control than one hiding behind cardboard box.
Also may be happiness should play some role, because happy population needs less control.

 

[bullyrook]

Currently every vassal civilian need 1 guard, which seems extremely excessive.

I like your post, but if you'll forgive me for saying so, I think you aren't seeing the forest because of the trees. I say this in the spirit of meaty conversation between fellow travelers and not as a slight or dismissal.

edit: I'll probably get banned for making so many posts, but I couldn't get everything out my stupid head any other way. I know I don't have a reputation for being terse. Please forgive me.

I'm also not taking any issue with the math and formulae, but I think it's important to get the broad strokes of the system before fine tuning or picking apart the individual pieces.

I'm going to try to convince you that the current system is pretty damn cool. As always, I may over estimate my abilities and understanding so please correct me when I need it.


Even if it's true that every civilian needs 1 guard to maintain control, guards aren't the only way to maintain control. Patrols are the other way to maintain control in vassals. Control in a vassal is best provided by a combination of patrols and guards. This system is dynamic.

And, if every vassal civilian does need one Rank 1 guard, it should still hold that higher ranked guards provide more control than than rank 1 guards. Does the math show that this is true?

1 guard raider recruiter generates 50 control, 25(base soldier) * 2 (guard multiplayer)

Is the guard's actual rank the "base soldier" or the "guard multiplier" in the equation? Either way higher ranked guards add more control than lower ranks, right?

I think the system is in fact designed to require more lower ranked guards than higher ranked guards when it comes to Control. Somewhere, Kinggath mentions retiring high ranking warriors to guard duty.

Needing more lower ranked guards ultimately decreases your available pool of warriors. So if you were able to vassalize a level 3 city you would need to station many more less experienced rank 1 guards there than more experienced, more frightening, rank 5 guards. And also if you got lucky and took a level 3 city early, doing so might even slow down your progress for a time by requiring you to convert more warriors to guards or patrols.

 

[bullyrook]

Patrols provide control to both the outpost they are stationed at and to the vassal they patrol to.

How much control each patrol provides increases as the number of warriors at the stationed outpost or linked outpost increases. A patrol from an Outpost with only 1 warrior would provide the least amount of Control in this case. A patrol from an outpost with 15 warriors would provide much more.

This is why early in the game, it seems to me, patrols are more effective than guards. If you manage to take your first outpost without many losses, it's possible to have upwards of 15-20 warriors in your first settlement. Assigning a patrol from this pool only decreases the total warrior count by 1 and so it's possible to have a patrol packing the punch of over 15 warriors. Of course, this same patrol's effectiveness will decrease as those warriors start to get assigned to other roles.

It'd be interesting to see the actual math behind this.

 

[bullyrook]

For lvl3 plot its between 15*3.2=48 and 15*4.2= 63 what equates the same amount ControlNeeded.

I'm on this damn Xbox so I can't see for myself but I trust you, and this squares with how things appear to work in my own game. Every level of a commercial plot appears to provide on average +15 wages. Or at least it did when I was paying attention prior to 4.1.1.

However, my main vassal has 13 plots: 5 level 4 Farms, 4 level 3 Commercials, 4 level 3 Industrials. I maintain full control with two guards: 1 raider recruit/prospect and 1 "Raider Savage" (rank 3???) and then 5 patrols coming out of two different outposts. That's 7 troops to control 13 plots, but those 13 plots sustain almost 3/4 of the needs of two outposts and support upwards of 30+ raiders.

To keep full control I've had to rotate guards, thus the rank 3, and add warriors/maintain a certain number of warriors at my outposts. Each of my two outposts now has 12 or 13 warriors. When this number goes down, control at my main vassal starts to go down as well. It was as low as 85% before I was able to recruit some newbies and pad the warrior count to its current state.

Why do you even need patrols? Why not just use guards?

Too many guards in a vassal lowers morale and reduces production.

Why do you even need guards? Why not just use patrols?

1. In a defend vassal quest, you will fail if all guards are killed. If you have no guards, you will fail immediately.
2. Guards are meat shields.
3. Also, too many patrols from any one outpost reduce the warrior count there, thus, making each patrol less effective. And too few warriors at an outpost can lower morale there.

 

[bullyrook]

As suggestions. As i see , control should be based on guard/civilian proportion instead of resource plot lvl

This is how vassal morale is figured. So for high morale in a vassal you need more civilians than guards. At least 66% Civilians. What percentage of guards to civilians would work if this was used to determine control?

If it's 33%, that's what you should be shooting for now. Maintaining control at that percentage or below requires higher ranking guards and utilizing more effect patrols.

But changing how control works by basing it merely on some ratio of guards to civilians will also require revamping the morale system as it stands. And it makes control completely a matter of just how many guards and not the quality of the guards (rank/experience). You'd never have to game out what to do with different ranks.

As it stands now, full control and high morale in a vassal are a balancing act. It might not be achievable easily and early, but it's something to slowly build to.

 

[bullyrook]

It does no matter if farmer farms 2 or 10 melons it is still 1 farmer.

The interesting thing about W/R/E is its not exactly stuff. Food ain't rations and rations ain't food. W/R/E is just a measure-- a measure of theoretical production based on plot level. It's not that a farmer produces 2 melons or 10 melons. It's that level 2 plots and level 3 plots represent higher advancement than level 1's.

Likewise Equipment isn't any particular thing. A nuclear power plant plot from Industrial Revolution produces as much Equipment as a level 3 regular scrap yard. And requires the same amount of control. Varying how much control was needed based on the supposed quality of output would be interesting, but would complicate the system more.

And so as it stands now, the only things considered in W/R/E production is

1. Is the plot being worked?

2. What level is the plot?

3. Morale bonus​

(An interesting question would be does a vassal that doesn't produce any W/R/E need any control? and also do unemployed/unassigned settlers in vassals increase control needs?)

Also fCurrentOutpost_ControlPercentage is calculated before fCurrentOutpost_ControlNeeds is calculated. And some other places.

I imagine that this is the case because vassal morale is used to determine the actual production of W/R/E. Because vassal morale is determined by the ratio of civilians to guards, "Current Outpost_ControlPercentage," this is then needed/used to determine actual W/R/E production which is then used to calculate actual "Current Outpost_ControlNeeds"????

 

[bullyrook]

On other hand guard post level should matter, because guard in concrete bunker with automated turrets can exert more control than one hiding behind cardboard box.

But doing this would ultimately just make Control about how many of these plots you can build, and not about balancing roles and the needs of your growing army. Control would just become a number like defense needing to equal food+water. You'd need just a certain number of plots for a given population.

As it stands now you have to balance how many troops you have available for raids against how many you have available for all other roles. As you expand your army and territory, you have to divert more troops/resources for Control.

 

[bullyrook]

Also may be happiness should play some role, because happy population needs less control.

Happiness/morale, it seems to me, does play a role in a roundabout way: High morale gives you a substantial production bonus, each up arrow is 20%, so maintaining high (max) morale is a 100% bonus to production. More is produced (with less) this allows for more recruitment. The more you grow your army, the more troops you have available for all roles. But it also means you can support more warriors in each of your outposts. More warriors at an outpost makes patrols more effective and can reduce the number of guards needed at any one vassal.

At Tenpines, my second smaller vassal (6 civilians), I maintain all my (total) control with just 2 patrols. I have no guards stationed here. I run the risk of losing by default any Defend Mission if it happens. I'm trusting that maintaining total control will save me from even getting a Defend mission in the first place. Let the fear of God scatter and shake my foes.

 

[patches]

I have 7 civilian plots in Tenpines and I need 5 guards and 2 patrols to keep 100% control. I need nearly double that for the co-op (I think it has 10 civ plots).

 

[Testeris010]

Patrol by itself exert 25(base soldier) control. Its half what guard do.
Each warrior in linked outpost exert 10 control.
So currently to control 1 lvl 3 plot you need 1 guard or 2 patrols or 1 patrol + 3 warriors

Guards is the most efficient control providers (not counting morale penalty). And if you have only one vassal in outposts range, there is no reason to send patrols and keep warriors for control (again not looking at morale penalty and outpost control)

It gets better when you have many vassals and one outpost with many warriors in range and patrols from there because thous same warriors provide control for all of vassals.
With more than 5 vassals in outposts range warrior in outpost is more efficient than guard.

Other thing is that in vassals guard post can be worked only by your guards, you need defense there so you need to send guards there, more they produce food water, more defense they need = more guards needed. So I have barely enough to provide defense, but for control I need 3 times as many.

It may be more unbalanced because of mods interaction, Horizon sets timescale to 10 so recruitment happens once in a eon and with constant mega raids on main outpost killing of all new recruites there is severe recruit deficit (thous raids was unintended and supposedly is fixed).

But my post is more about the thing that it seems that all this is unintended
Because:
1. Vassalbonus instead of being 20% increase is 220% increase
2. if there is function getWages() then thats the place where ALL wages is calculated, but in current implementation thats only 2/3 of real value, the rest 1/3 is added in completely different function
3. kinggath stated that guard working agro/commercial/industrial plot does not produce any resources. In current calculation its only 33% correct, because check for guard working plot is performed only on the 1/3 of value outside of getWages(), GetRations(), GetEquipment function. Resulting in guard working plot producing 66% of what civilian produce instead of stated 0%.

If it is as I suspect and values is unintendedly inflated 3 times then correct values would be that you need 1/3 guards of population and that would coincide with morale calculation where 1/3 is max guards without morale penalty.

On other hand if the values is correct, then it would be grate to put all calculations in corresponding functions, remove duplicates and instead if running calculation twice simply increase multiplayer variables.

 

[Phil_T_Casual]

What rank are you guys guards/patrols?
Because that has a big effect on control, they only way to really keep control is to have high ranking crew patrolling and guarding.

 

[bullyrook]

@Testeris010 I'm going to try to maintain my excitement and not spill my ink bottle all at once. I will probably fail. These posts of yours always have so much good stuff to unpack.

Other thing is that in vassals guard post can be worked only by your guards, you need defense there so you need to send guards there, more they produce food water, more defense they need = more guards needed. So I have barely enough to provide defense, but for control I need 3 times as many.

This really is the hard rub, right?

These two things can be at odds with each other: How do I maintain high enough defense with only Guards and SS Martial Plots, but not have so many guards that I blow up vassal morale?

In my mind the answer is it may very well be impossible to maintain all defense with just SS martial plots and still maintain the max morale bonus. To do this, you maybe forced to pay for vanilla defense maintenance as well. Or find alternate means of defense.

I don't see this as defect, but a challenge.

A good vassal produces not only W/R/E, but excess food to feed outposts. Excess food production demands higher defense. More defense requires more/higher level SS martial plots. Requires more guards.

A vassal that produces a shit ton of excess food requires a crap ton of defense. Farming hub vassals will be the hardest to maintain total control of and also the hardest to defend while maintaining the highest morale.

At some point you'll cross a line and either have to choose more guards/martial plots to maintain defense thus lowering morale, or you'll have to maintain your current guard count and add other means of defense that doesn't lower morale but has other costs, like turrets.

Total control or high morale: it's a hard decision to make until you have more resources means at your disposal.

I've always have opted to forgo total control to maintain high morale. The production bonus is too important. It's worth the add risk of attack. Attacks are the only opportunity for guards to rank.

 

[bullyrook]

1. Vassalbonus instead of being 20% increase is 220% increase

Regardless of the actual numbers, philosophically and big picture-wise something along these lines seems completely intended.

It's not just that vassals provide a bonus to W/R/E production, but that they ultimately provide a huge bonus to production. So much so that you should need to have the bulk of your W/R/E production in a vassal and not in an Outpost. If the difference was minimal, there would be no reason to even bother with vassals.

Control in outposts is almost a trivial concern. so if Outposts could be self sufficient (produce enough food on their own, produce enough W/R/E), your entire empire, no matter how small or large, would only need 5 to 15 warriors at any given time. Just enough to go on the next attack.

Every one else could be converted to guards and workers. Your morale wouldn't be as high, but you could overcome this by spamming plots.

 

[bullyrook]

3. kinggath stated that guard working agro/commercial/industrial plot does not produce any resources. In current calculation its only 33% correct, because check for guard working plot is performed only on the 1/3 of value outside of getWages(), GetRations(), GetEquipment function. Resulting in guard working plot producing 66% of what civilian produce instead of stated 0%.

But Guards and Civilians only really rub elbows in vassals, right?

Guards only work Martial Plots which produce no W/R/E. 66% of 0 is still zero.

Wouldn't you have to turn Faction Jobs in Vassals: "on" to get a guard to even work a non martial plot in a Vassal? At which point, technically, shouldn't this guard now be a worker.

Or do the numbers show that across the board guards assigned to work plots produce 66% of normal W/R/E instead of 0%.

Regardless,

If there's a case where you can have guards work non martial plots in a vassal and still provide full control (Control comes from just the guard, not any plot), but only at a cost of -33% W/R/E production of the worked plot: That seems like a cool feature. I'd take that bargain.

But this is case you'd have to force to happen. It's not naturally occurring, so to speak.

And at an Outpost, if it is the case, you'd be cutting your production by half for no upside. Re-roling the recruit to a worker should give you 120% production.

 

[Testeris010]

What rank are you guys guards/patrols?
Because that has a big effect on control, they only way to really keep control is to have high ranking crew patrolling and guarding.

I know. But the thing is that vassals is not a "endgame" thing it's literally 1. thing you do after establishing your HQ. That means you got only 5 naked recruits. After taking vassal they stay there as guards and you got no one to send to patrol, no warriors. And if vassal is more than 5 settlers in good houses you don't even got control.

Or do the numbers show that across the board guards assigned to work plots produce 66% of normal W/R/E instead of 0%.

Yes. This calculation is for every settlement. Only places where is checked if settlement is vassal is when calculating morale and if Vassalbonus needs to be applied. So in outpost guard working farm produce 50% of normal production (because no Vassalbonus) instead of supposedly 0%.

 

[bullyrook]

That means you got only 5 naked recruits.

Why don't faction packs start with the same twenty dudes you get in the Jammer quest?

That might not have been a problem prior to Phase 2 when all you had to worry about was getting some food, but it's got to burn now.

And if vassal is more than 5 settlers in good houses you don't even got control.

ugh. Vassal houses are the worst. I really wish the mod would put the plot explosion animation to good use and actually blow them up when you took control.

How you gonna feed your dudes when your vassals are living it up in fancy houses, high on the hog?

2. if there is function getWages() then thats the place where ALL wages is calculated, but in current implementation thats only 2/3 of real value, the rest 1/3 is added in completely different function

Is what you are finding, matching up with what @Countyboar is reporting here?: https://simsettlements.com/site/index.php?threads/w-r-e-potential-calculation-issues.10886/