One (slightly cheeky) question for SS2 players

[Dix]

First off, I just want to say thanks to the entire Sim Settlements team. Your mods improve this game to a huge degree & add a lot of immersion (Really, Sturges? You can hammer a wall for days but moving a mattress is beyond you?). You've put a huge amount of work into this, and it shows.

On to the questions: I'm an intermediate modder and have played several stable games of FO4 and SS1 in the past using Vortex, but I am struggling with a SS2 load order. Annoyingly, I install mods in small groups, test a new game up to the museum of freedom to see if stable, add a few more mods and repeat. Start getting random CTDs, revert to my previous working mod list and an old save, but now I'm crashing within minutes there as well. I have rebuilt various load orders from scratch with a clean install multiple times, and if not for sheer stubborness & the desire to see SS2 in action I would probably have loaded up something else by now . I'm not asking for help troublehsooting in the traditional way, though.

1st question: I've seen some suggestions of only having SS2 and core mods like sorting and the UOF4P installed until reaching Codsworth, then using that as your base save to add new mods. Is that the reccomended approach for stability?

& the slightly cheeky request: Would anyone who has a stable long-running SS2 game in play be willing to post their mod-list? The ones I've found online either seem to be SS1 or someone starting a new game. I'm hoping someone will have a list that has been running & stable in-game for a long period. Ideally, one with a lot of new creatures & quests, faction overhauls and a loot and/or ai overhaul, but a stable list is my main priority. I can then work my way down the list of content mods I'd like instead of trying to figure out what is broken in my list from the start each time.

 

[msalaba]

I feel your pain. I have purposely kept my LO small to eliminate the possibility of mod conflicts. I have yet to get back to my SS1 LO.

Your best bet is to search this forum for user @RayBo as I do not know anyone that runs more mods. I think he posted his LO.

 

[Dix]

I feel your pain. I have purposely kept my LO small to eliminate the possibility of mod conflicts. I have yet to get back to my SS1 LO.

Your best bet is to search this forum for user @RayBo as I do not know anyone that runs more mods. I think he posted his LO.

Thanks - I'll take a gander now.

 

[RayBo]

@Dix

I do not run an ENB, weather, alt-start, Dialogue mods like XDI, or mods like scrap everything.
- Several companion/quest authors have stated that going forward they are not making their mods to support non-vanilla Dialogue mods.

The plugless mods are not listed, but I use mods like Def_UI, FallUI to handle sorting, FPSfix, Buffout 4 - etc.

Suggestion - Fo4Edit is something worth getting familiar with.

• I always clean my DLC
• There are always some mods I have to modify even if I do not make a patch

Fallrim, is mandentory for me. I check my save-file on a regular basis with it.

• Idling in settlements is important.
• Walking into settlements is important.
• Making saves during periods of low game activity in important.
• Updating big mods like SS2 in an internal cell away from a settlement is important.
• Update big mods with the manual DL button on the nexus and drag them to the mods tab.

1st question: I've seen some suggestions of only having SS2 and core mods like sorting and the UOF4P installed until reaching Codsworth, then using that as your base save to add new mods. Is that the reccomended approach for stability?

Yes, it can help but as you have indicated there are exceptions.

I would say making a base of unmodded saves "EXCEPT" (install the UOF4P at the very start of a new game). Then, making a series of "hard-saves" using the console unmodded but add the + UOF4P through the Codsworth interaction is a very good practice. Make copies of those saves and put them somewhere safe. As you can use them to quick-start a game and/or use them for testing, plop them into a fresh vortex profile, and such. (This is a player configuration).

You can do the same and add the looksmenu stuff + the sorting mods, but then you might not be able to use them if you do testing for a mod author. (This too is a player configuration).

Some authors will not even want you to test on a save that has the UOF4P. This would be an (author-specific testing configuration).

Ok, I normally do not share my load-order until after at least level 70 so I know it is good, but you sound like you can handle it. So, attached is my current plug-in list.



I always have a "come to Jesus" moment at around level 20. If that save is problematic at that point I start over. Fo4 is a long game and no use for me fighting further trying to salvage it if that save file seems faulty after that point. Some saves for whatever reason are "still-born" if by level 20 the save has issues then I use that save to test new mods then start over, removing the offending mods.

Note: I am not using Thuggy mods this run or really anything that touches Concord. hahahaha, I have my reasons for this choice.

Good Luck

Attached is my current plug-in list.

Oh, hahaha you will see some goofy dividers in my LO. Don't worry about them.
They are empty plugs
The below may help?

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[Dix]

Thanks RayBo - greatly appreciated! Oddly enough I had just finished watching the video you linked when I clicked back onto the forum and saw your reply, as I've been working through your guidance elsewhere on the site. I've always followed a stripped down version of your approach when modding, but BaGS is a lot more structured. I've been reading through your docs and familiarising myself with some parts of Vortex I never used (cough-groups instead of load order & conflict rules-cough). It's a sensible approach. I have also been somewhat awestruck by your 2019 modlist - that was quite a setup to get loading, never mind stable!

ReSaver is something I need to get more familiar with - I've used it at a high level for a while, mostly for fixing my SkyRim saves, but there is a lot more to learn.
The DLC is always cleaned, though I don't normally make any merge/bash patches. Do you have an opinion either way on that? I've never bothered in the past for FO4, and consensus seems split when I go reading.

Def_UI, ENB, F4SE are all standard for me, and I've started adding Buffout 4 & the FPS Physics fix as well, so there shouldn't be anything gamebreaking there (I hope). One mod you may like to have a look at if you haven't seen it already is Rudy88's Simple Sorter. It's not quite as neat as a hand-made sorting patch for VIS-G or similar, but it gets rid of any need for sorting patches and supports almost any mod. A user has also made a patch script for SS2 so it doesn't tag any workbench items.

I may epxeriment with some of the Thuggy quest mods just to see if they work, but I've never actually completed FO4 so I'll likely go for a vanilla main quest this time just to see it (the problem with a modded sandbox being that you can spend 100s of hours wandering around the place and building the world's largest tower of children's letter blocks). If I can get this save stable then it will mainly be dungeons and additional raider content to add (I don't know why, but somehow the Commonwealth raiders never seemed quite as depraved as the Capital Wasteland's offerings.)

Once again, thanks for the listing!

 

[Phil_T_Casual]

If you don't do the main quest (like me) you should make a completely vanilla save and as soon as you leave the vault go and complete one of the DLC. I use a save with nukaworld completed and then start all new games from inside the NW Transit centre. I'm then starting from a well 'bedded-in' save that's in between world spaces meaning there's less data loaded into memory, in a safe internal cell where mods can be installed in stages, which is good practice if you have the patience for it.

 

[Dix]

Cheers PhilT_Casual - I don't think I'll go that far as time for games is limited, but will see. I'm aiming to make it at least as far as the Prydwen this time - I've yet to see that in just under 500 hours in game. Heck, I've never yet made it into Emerald City or seen Nick Valentine - I always get distracted by the sandbox, the wandering and the cities (was particulary proud of my combined spa camp, hanging gardens & apartment complexes built in Nuka World RR. Also featured "voluntary" work rehabilition for the residents enticed in by a life of idle luxury. The security posts, turrets and electric fences all facing inwards were entirely for their protection, I assure you!)

 

[Revived]

I always clean my DLC

FYI - This is from a post by Damanding on TMaH discord:

PSA: Don't clean the base game files or DLC files. Cleaning the game files is some very old and bad advice. Most mod authors create their mods based on uncleaned/vanilla game files. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned game files and the UP team themselves don't recommend cleaning base game files. If you clean the game files and a mod references a cleaned record while expecting an uncleaned record it can cause CTD or various other problems.

Is cleaning the dlc correct or not at this point?

 

[Dix]

Not really sure - I suppose it comes down to if your game is stable or not. I didn't use to clean in the past with SS1, then I did some more reading and started as I used to have to do similar things with older Bethesda games, and it seemed that it may help and shouldn't hurt. A lot of the mod lists and guides I read suggested cleaning.
But I'm not qualified to give a definitive answer, so unless one of the original devs or someone of similar knowledge can tell us, it'll just come down to stability.

The point about mods being made in expectation of uncleaned saves is an interesting one, though.

 

[Phil_T_Casual]

In over 9k hours I have never noticed a difference between cleaned or unclean. So I just don't bother anymore.

 

[Din'elen DarkStar]

Here you go. 200+ hours in with little issues. On a couple games so this load order has hundreds of hours under its hood. Huge settlements and running great.

 

[Din'elen DarkStar]

I cleaned my DLCS. Don't know if it's caused issues but I did clean them in xEdit. A while ago.

 

[RayBo]

Hey all.

Darn......

The point was not to inspire controversy on the subject of "to clean or not to clean DLC"

The point was to suggest the use and learning of:

"Suggestion - Fo4Edit is something worth getting familiar with."

Just exchange:

• I always clean my DLC

to

• I use it to figure out mod conflicts and load order placement.

The list of uses for Fo4edit is long,
The suggestion is what is important.

"Get and use Fo4edit".

 

[RayBo]

FYI - This is from a post by Damanding on TMaH discord:

PSA: Don't clean the base game files or DLC files. Cleaning the game files is some very old and bad advice. Most mod authors create their mods based on uncleaned/vanilla game files. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned game files and the UP team themselves don't recommend cleaning base game files. If you clean the game files and a mod references a cleaned record while expecting an uncleaned record it can cause CTD or various other problems.

Is cleaning the dlc correct or not at this point?

@damanding would you be so kind next time you swing by the forums and read this ping?

The last information I can find on Cleaning DLC is this post from Arthmoor.
I kind of listen when Arthmoor says something but I suspect you have more recent contact with him?

This is the last post on the subject I can find from Arthmoor on the cleaning DLC for Fo4?

This was taken from the Nexus Unofficial FO4 Patch Forums.




At the end of the day, "I don't care if I am right."

I do care that I do not mislead anyone, and give the best advice for a successful SS/FO4 game to folks.

 

[RayBo]

FYI - This is from a post by Damanding on TMaH discord:

PSA: Don't clean the base game files or DLC files. Cleaning the game files is some very old and bad advice. Most mod authors create their mods based on uncleaned/vanilla game files. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned game files and the UP team themselves don't recommend cleaning base game files. If you clean the game files and a mod references a cleaned record while expecting an uncleaned record it can cause CTD or various other problems.

Is cleaning the dlc correct or not at this point?

On the funny side.
I had to look up what "PSA" meant...

Google gave me: Prostate-specific antigen, or PSA

I am too old for this crap
there is a pun in there somewhere I think.

 

[Dix]

I'm not sure one can be to old for either type of PSA!
@RayBo - xEdit advice received and understood the first post . I've been slowly learning it for a while as it's one of the cornerstones of Bethesda modding.
@dinelen_darkstar - thanks for the listing. I'll give it a read through now.

 

[Dix]

Oh, and a bit a of Google-Fu following on from RayBo's screenshot has just led me to this Reddit discussion, in which Arthmoor talks about cleaning the masters. He is firmly in favour there, and near the end specifically talks about the query of Mods being made in expectation of dirty DLC:


Unless his advice has changed since, that would seem to be fairly defninitive.

 

[damanding]

Arthmoor's advice has indeed changed since 3 years ago. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned masters and he is my source for the PSA comment that Raybo linked earlier. So bottom line, don't clean the F4 masters. :D

Edited to add: The fact that console users can't clean theirs is one of the reasons why it no longer makes sense to clean masters and then create mods based on cleaned masters. Doing so will cause problems for console users.

 

[RayBo]

Arthmoor's advice has indeed changed since 3 years ago. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned masters and he is my source for the PSA comment that Raybo linked earlier. So bottom line, don't clean the F4 masters. :D

Edited to add: The fact that console users can't clean theirs is one of the reasons why it no longer makes sense to clean masters and then create mods based on cleaned masters. Doing so will cause problems for console users.

Thank you.

This does also make sense in regard to a similar situation with CC files that comes packaged with the game.
Many guides recommend removing it "2xBA's for each CC-mod" as they don't have plugs.
Problems arise if:
If one removes those files and later downloads some of that content original CC content, that specific content will only download the plug from the CC store.
Unlike the rest of the CC content that will DL the full content, "normally three files."
So, unless the user has kept that original content from those few mods, and places it back into the data folder the game will have the "start-up" CTD, as only the plug will be in the data folder.

A hard one for the user to figure out. So, better just to leave it.

Ok, good to know!

 

[XxA1xX]

FYI - This is from a post by Damanding on TMaH discord:

PSA: Don't clean the base game files or DLC files. Cleaning the game files is some very old and bad advice. Most mod authors create their mods based on uncleaned/vanilla game files. The Unofficial Patch is based on uncleaned game files and the UP team themselves don't recommend cleaning base game files. If you clean the game files and a mod references a cleaned record while expecting an uncleaned record it can cause CTD or various other problems.

Is cleaning the dlc correct or not at this point?

I’ve always cleaned my dlc on Fo4 and Skyrim se without issues. Fo4 I occasionally get the silent protagonist issue but verifying and recleaning everything fixes it. But I’ve ran a few games without the cleaning and not had issues either , although the dawn guard dlc in Skyrim has a edited cell that’s a wild edit that can cause ctd if not removed and another mod touches that area. Honestly in Fo4 I doubt it’s a big deal either way though as the game runs fine on console and you can’t clean console files right ?