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My thoughts on the triangle of death.

Danest

Member
Messages
86
I happen to like Sanctuary, Red Rocket, and Abernathy. A while back I was getting crashes, and it was probably the circle of death. I lost a lot of hours backtracking (I didn't know about the circle of death issue at the time.)
So I'm thinking, is it possible to mod the game to merge red rocket into the sanctuary build area?

I'm looking at the creation kit info online and at one point it says,

"
Buildable Area
The buildable area can be set in two ways:

  • Link primitive(s) to the workshop with the WorkshopLinkedPrimitive keyword - the overlapping area of the primitives will be the buildable area."


It sounds kind of like it might be possible to link sanctuary to red rocket, and make them a single settlement.
If it was possible, would that make any difference in regards to the circle of death, having to quickly flush red rocket settlement info to make way for sanctuary?

I *really* never want to run into that crash again, but I know me, I'm going to fall to temptation eventually, and build up those settlements further than I know is safe for my system.
 
I can only say, look at the info for spectacle island. It has a huge build able area that would be similar to merging rr with sanctuary. But from what I remember, spectacle island was buggy when you tried to build through the whole island
 
There is a mod on nexus that merges sanctuary and red rocket workbenches.

From experience, and as I play survival with no fast travel, I dont have issues with the triangle except with my 1080TI goes from 60+fps to 30ish.

I would stay away from merging, scrap mods, and build them up, but limit settler count to about 20 to 25 between the 3 settlements.

Also, limit interior plots. I have found it starts tanking with those and it might be within the wireless power.

You can do just with about 6 to 8 settlers in each of the 3 and build something respectful.
 
Yeah, it's probably possible to merge them. But I won't bother if it doesn't reduce the triangle of death crashes.
 
From what I’ve looked at with the triangle of death tells me merging them will not help with it.

I’m curious why John has the impression interior plots cause more issues. My personal experience has been the complete opposite. I’m on Xbox, no idea if that changes anything. but for me sanctuary consisted mostly of interior plots, got it to 15 settlers and I never had any issues. Other smaller population settlements that consisted of exterior plots were crashing but not Sanctuary. Then again I had 2 settlers in Red Rocket and 5 or 6 in Abernathy to try and avoid issues with the triangle of death. Because my understanding of the issue is that as it loads new cells having too much build in both settlements caused issues I kept the middle one as light as possible (Idek station and a guard) to have as little demand on the engine as possible as I walk from one to the other. But then again maybe my understanding is completely false and I just got lucky
 
From what I’ve looked at with the triangle of death tells me merging them will not help with it.

I’m curious why John has the impression interior plots cause more issues. My personal experience has been the complete opposite. I’m on Xbox, no idea if that changes anything. but for me sanctuary consisted mostly of interior plots, got it to 15 settlers and I never had any issues. Other smaller population settlements that consisted of exterior plots were crashing but not Sanctuary. Then again I had 2 settlers in Red Rocket and 5 or 6 in Abernathy to try and avoid issues with the triangle of death. Because my understanding of the issue is that as it loads new cells having too much build in both settlements caused issues I kept the middle one as light as possible (Idek station and a guard) to have as little demand on the engine as possible as I walk from one to the other. But then again maybe my understanding is completely false and I just got lucky

This is within the context of my experience. I play on PC, Ultra, etc.. my qualifying effect is when I go from a solid 60+ fps to 30fps - and I only state as I seen, and that is, when I start using interior plots heavily, it drops. I notice the slowdown. And that is just me.

And I would agree, depends on the game. I have stated before that I can notice, even starting a new game, if it is a "bad start"... things don't seem to gel right to me. And I can tell this by the time I am done with Codsworth. For me, I just start a new game again and things "feel" right.

What do I think is the reason? Things may not get properly loaded, etc. Hence is why I have been for the last 6 months plus, baked my save game while in the vault and have basically nothing "enabled" during pre-war.

Yes, my mods are all loaded just not enabled. I haven't done load order changes after installed, and I ditched DEFUI. Maybe now that I have a super stable install method and baking of a saved game (cue ===> Raybo!) I will try interior plots again in a more heavily manner than just touching a settlement with them.

And if there is one last qualifier to remember - it is Bethesda.

John
 
Maybe he secretly loves me... it's okay Whisper :)

BTW - I was actually thinking of whisper at Longfellow's … picked his 2x2 tesla plot - haven't seen it before... holy moly! Sorry, I had to delete... way too big and very... encompassing!

John
Bwahahahhh! :grin

Yeah the 2x2 version is *rather* tall at L3 - there’s a reason that it’s player-select only. I need to upgrade it big-time with the new modeling system they’ve created. In amongst playing and the other things my burnt-out brain has thoughts about.

(Covenant - after I’ve killed everyone and taken it over, all the dead people still own everything - that needs to change. Taking a dead persons stuff is *not* stealing Bethesda!)
 
Why would you need to merge them?

The main issue with the triangle was:
1. Partially loaded settlements
The game only loads like a 5x5 area around you in cells. Which would cause only parts of the settlements to loads when in any of the three.

This would cause the game to "update" the settlement stats to what was currently loaded which would cause shortages and such. It would also wreak hell on your scripting as settlers would reassign themselves to the change in stats.

Spectacle Island had issues because the other half of your settlement could "unload" on you and decide it is no longer there because it was outside the active cell load area. Basically you could have generators that were no longer there.

2. Loading them together
I think Workshop Framework and the UOFP mod both had a fix to the partial load problems by forcing the game to load all cells of a settlement if any of them loaded.

This basically causes all of the three settlements to load together. Which the game engine simply can not handle. I have had three different PCs over the four years and my i9700 with 32gb ram has the same limit the previous ones had, it just does not bog as easily. At about 30 in Red Rocket and 50 in Sanctuary and empty Abernathy has been the limit for me about every time.

You can build at all three and not have issues but you need to do it minimally. I would limit yourself to a population of 12 in Red Rocket, 12 in Abernathy, and 30 in Sanctuary.

3. Outside factors
If you are using mods that change Sanctuary (ie Scrap Anything, Cleaner, etc) then you are dragging down the stability and some of these CTDs are from errors of the original houses being removed. Simply assuming it is a "triangle issue" is going to lead you to keep repeating the crashes.
 
In practical terms, what I have found to be the "best" balance, within the triangle, roughly 36 to 40 total settlers between the 3 settlements. I have found 6 to 8 about perfect for RR.

But additionally, I have found that if you keep the ratio of plots around 1:2 to 4:3 … meaning 1 plot per settler to 1.5 plots per settler. Building 2 plots per settler (work and home) is fine if you stay at about 12 at Sanctuary/Abernathy and 6/8 at RR.

Go up in settlers, nix the home plots in favor of beds.

This is just been my rule of thumb. It works, I don't get CTD's. I play survival so I don't fast travel so some loading issues I don't encounter.

But in general, I think anyone staying below 12 to 15 per any settlement and maintain less that a 2 plots / setter (be closer to 1 plot/settler), and I think it will be fairly stable with good performance.

The problem with 30 in Sanctuary is that place can get away from you fast and in a quagmire before you know it.

Just my 2 pennies for the day. I general sense, I push these numbers, but for most people, it is best for performance and stability. (and I don't complain when I break it).

John
 
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Just my 2 pennies for the day. I general sense, I push these numbers, but for most people, it is best for performance and stability. (and I don't complain when I break it).
I have 5000 hours played. I have thrown away games after reaching the CTD point repeatedly in Sanctuary. Which usually means throwing away saves that had 30-50 hours into them.

So I had played with pushing it as far as I could. I do not mean just have one CTD and then dump the game. I make sure it happens repeatedly. Sometimes you can pull the game out of it by forcing a fast travel or a moveto command, which usually means it was an upgraded plot issue or a conflict trying to load the actual assets from "far away mode" to actually being present.

Yeah Sanctuary is a trap. It is so easy to find yourself getting too big. I think 30 is about as low as I can go mentally, lol. Mostly because I can not resist the urge to put 4-5 people in each house.

Sanctuary 1.jpg Sanctuary 2.jpg My VR pod to my Desert Island, which has got to be one of the best CC items you can get for a builder.
 
I have 5000 hours played. I have thrown away games after reaching the CTD point repeatedly in Sanctuary. Which usually means throwing away saves that had 30-50 hours into them.

So I had played with pushing it as far as I could. I do not mean just have one CTD and then dump the game. I make sure it happens repeatedly. Sometimes you can pull the game out of it by forcing a fast travel or a moveto command, which usually means it was an upgraded plot issue or a conflict trying to load the actual assets from "far away mode" to actually being present.

Yeah Sanctuary is a trap. It is so easy to find yourself getting too big. I think 30 is about as low as I can go mentally, lol. Mostly because I can not resist the urge to put 4-5 people in each house.

View attachment 7989 View attachment 7990 My VR pod to my Desert Island, which has got to be one of the best CC items you can get for a builder.

I know the urge. Sanctuary is so big, it should be able to handle more people... and I would agree 30 feels right... I just wouldn't put many in RR/Abernathy at that point...

John
 
I know the urge. Sanctuary is so big, it should be able to handle more people... and I would agree 30 feels right... I just wouldn't put many in RR/Abernathy at that point...
Well Abernathy has a weird issue where the south half get funky with work assignments and such. So I never build past the top of the hill by gardens.

Sanctuary full.jpg
I had like a 60 population, about 20-30 visitors, somewhere like 100+ plots before it suffered the first crash. I could have probably salvaged it by turning clutter off and visitors off.
 
Well Abernathy has a weird issue where the south half get funky with work assignments and such. So I never build past the top of the hill by gardens.

View attachment 7991
I had like a 60 population, about 20-30 visitors, somewhere like 100+ plots before it suffered the first crash. I could have probably salvaged it by turning clutter off and visitors off.

Yes, about far towards border on the north as you go south. I generally stop at the firepit where the caravaners stop... stop is funky a bit....

Oh, I have ran that much... and out playing a long time without checking my count and had 72 there... I was like... holy cow...

I highly recommend @pra beacon where you can set the settler max... :) I set default 6 max early game and adjust per settlement.

John
 
I highly recommend @pra beacon where you can set the settler max... :) I set default 6 max early game and adjust per settlement.
I stopped using beacons because they cause script issues. Whenever a new settler arrives while away it causes the data to go corrupt in that settlement and others.

I use Settler's Calling instead and just summon new settlers.
 
I stopped using beacons because they cause script issues. Whenever a new settler arrives while away it causes the data to go corrupt in that settlement and others.

I use Settler's Calling instead and just summon new settlers.
Er what. Never heard of that one. I suspect something's wrong with your workshop array...
 
Er what. Never heard of that one. I suspect something's wrong with your workshop array...
Nope. It is a vanilla issue. I had 3000 hours without mods and I got used to watching my workshops data like a hawk because of the partial loading corruption and the complete 0 corruption. SS cuts down on it happening quite a bit, but it still occasionally happens when you have empty jobs.

When you get a new recruit while being away from a settlement you can watch the numbers jump and go corrupt. Especially if you had empty jobs. Once those numbers get skewed other settlements can follow.

Workshop/settlements simply do not like changing stats unless you are present. If they change while you are away it almost always goes bad. Like that new settler will bring like 20-30 friends with it.

I learned lots of tricks to reduce the workshop corruption because I hate having to run back (survival) to a settlement to correct the data. Doing away with recruitment beacons, radios, no unfilled jobs were the three biggest things to stabilize them. Those Creation Club cameras in the Ambush Kit were a godsend.
 
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