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Let's Talk Balance

kinggath

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One of the things I have a hard time observing personally, is how balanced Sim Settlements feels in the context of a full play-through.

I'd love to hear thoughts and opinions of how Sim Settlements works in the context of a normal game, and anything that can be done to improve the balance so that the rewards feel earned rather than over-powering.

With some things, like food and defense, I tried to repair an imbalance in the base game (food being too easy to get and guards not being worth it), though for others, like Industrial production, it's a lot of guess work that only "field experience" can perfect.

How are the food, water, defense, and happiness numbers?

How are the output of Industrial plots?

How are the tax rates?

Are there any other parts of Sim Settlements that make you feel over-powered in the context of the rest of the game?
 
I play survival mode on console without cheats. Taxes are good where they are at. Fiber optics are expensive whether its in microscopes/ biometric sensors or from the Prydwen. Late game, the rate of settlement founding/growth is high and the taxes/materials from the settlements help out a ton. Steel, wood, and concrete are heavily demanded materials so streams of them are nice.
 
I would agree with martial needing some love, particularly in the early end. For those of us not wanting to run 30-40 people settlements, each settler required to run a plot is at a premium, and the industrial upgrade requirements for martial plots put you in a bind if you want to go heavy or pure SS and not turret spam.

To get level 2 martial, you need 3 industrial plots, which wipe out a third or more of the defense a level 1 martial provides while it's waiting to upgrade. The housing for those settlers wipes out another 4 defense. Their food (at level 1) wipes out another 1-2 plus the additional 1-2 for their houses.

It's all about the ratios you need to get a settlement up and functioning (note that this is referring to kinggath stuff only and not addons, since he's asking). You need half of your population farming at level 1. You need 1 in 6 producing water (to account for farm water costs in feeding them, each settler really costs 1.5 water, not 1). That all seems pretty decent for a low tech, starting settlement in a post apocalyptic world.

Where it gets interesting is defense needs. Each settler effectively consumes a ton of defense. Their residence is -1. Their farm is -0.5 (one -1 farm per 2). Their water well is between 0.15 and 0.17. And then the actual 1 water and 1 food they consume after all reductions add up to another 2. So, each settler at level 1 consumes roughly 3.7 defense. Which means that a level 1 checkpoint can support less than 3 settlers, putting you close to needing half of your population on defense as well. While realistic for the world of the Commonwealth (having only one or two guards really doesn't fit any but the smallest settlements), it's a problem for being able to continue to expand (to say nothing of space requirements).

As farms upgrade, you'll free up a few settlers for other things, likely industrial to get on the path to martial upgrades, but those things will cost more defense. The farm upgrades themselves cost more defense. Housing upgrades will cost more defense. Martial plots just don't keep pace well and pretty much demand augmentation with turrets.
 
Kinggath, what is your frame of reference for what the stages of a settlement growth should be?
Do you expect it to be without power and defense till a certain number of settlers?
Is it supposed to be balanced towards using vanilla workshop items all the time, just in certain stages, or never?
Does the current balancing assume settlements will support each other in the future, or balanced for each settlement being self sufficient?

I could say what I feel is imbalanced, or try and run the numbers to show balance. That doesn't mean much though, if your goals for what a settlement should look like is different than mine.

Edit add: Also what settlement sizes are expected to be capable of being self sufficient, producing all their food, water, defense, power, and happiness?

TLDR (Too Long Didn't Read) version: It's impossible to discuss if something is balanced without knowing what the goal is.
 
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Is it supposed to be balanced to JUST use sim settlements or is it supposed to be balanced to use all the tools in vanilla as well?
 
I restarted playing because of Sim Settlements, so I've primarily been relying upon the plots instead of building everything by hand, and I've let the game choose what building. I'm struggling to keep both food and defense up. Since I assumed the plots would provide neither water nor power I used by typical generator and water purifier builds, so those are fine. Keeping enough beds and job in total - no trouble. Even happiness isn't much effort. But for defense I've had to mix in turrets early on, and I've resorted to the minuteman tanks and a few robots from Robots Home Defense is a couple places. I think when the last food plot upgrades from 2 to 3 Sanctuary will finally be at 100% across the board - but I ended up with 42 settlers in the process of getting there!
 
I agree with the above on the martial plots. I planned to strictly use SS during this playthrough, but I ended up just turret spamming because I didn't have enough settlers in the beginning to put on martial plots AND on farming.

(On a side note, I don't know on what version of SS food was easy to get lol. During my last playthrough, food was the bane of my existence. I never had enough, and I struggled to fit enough farms on some settlements.. I'm not having that problem this time around though.)
 
This is all great feedback! I'll respond to Kana's point because its framed as questions and they seem to cover a lot of the things you guys are asking and are nicely organized.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I have any of this right yet, but these kind of outline my goals, so maybe you guys can help me make the gameplay match up with them.

Kinggath, what is your frame of reference for what the stages of a settlement growth should be?
I approached it from an expected number of settlers and used food and security as the primary limiting factors of growth. I tried to steer settlement building towards a certain optimal path that would reflect the realistic needs and priorities of these people as if they were survivors trying to settle down.

So rather than civilization milestones, I tried to use population milestones and the types of groups that might form, to determine how things might pan out, and then put the numbers and conditions in place to encourage using certain plot types at different points. The milestones I always used were: Starting Population (1-3 in most settlements) - this represented a farm family just doing what they can, 5 settlers - representing multiple families coming together to establish a settlement, 10 settlers - representing a turning point from struggling survivors to established self-sufficient town, 15 settlers - representing a trading town capable of producing excess, 20 settlers - a full blown Fallout city with all of the amenities and even time for luxury like investigating new technology.


Do you expect it to be without power and defense till a certain number of settlers?
That is how I like to play it. I refrain from powering anything but necessities, which functionally are only the Martial plots. Homes, shops, and basic industrial will function without power. This not only reflects the reality that power should be hard to come by, but it also controls upgrades. I think most people see the power symbol and assume "Needs Power", but for those three plot types (Residential, Commercial, Industrial), I'd say it would make more sense to treat those as "Can Be Powered". Unfortunately, the UI doesn't allow for the distinction. It was something I hoped people would pick up on (the idea of not trying to get everything to upgrade super fast by controlling power), but when I recognized most people were immediately powering everything, I added the Upgrades: Manual option so players could just hit the breaks on those upgrades without having to worry about controlling power. It's still not a perfect solution, because it introduces more micro-management.

Any suggestions on how we could imply this as a good play style? I love to make as many things as possible intuitive, with visual or audio cues, and UI pieces that point you in that direction as opposed to pop-up messages and required video watching or forum reading...


Is it supposed to be balanced towards using vanilla workshop items all the time, just in certain stages, or never?
Yes, the goal was never to fully replace the vanilla objects (or mod/DLC added objects). I tried to discourage the idea of using plots for water and power early by putting them on plots with high penalties. I think using gasoline engines and hand water pumps is actually awesome towards the feel of a growing post-war society.

I've always loved the idea of the settlements being more fluid, where eventually some of those old things become obsolete as you expand your technology and resources. So for example, in the mid game, destroying some of those hand pumps for a Community Well, which will then upgrade and supply most of your city's water. Or tearing down an unneeded farm and opening up a factory in it's stead.

I think turrets are a big problem, and if I wasn't against altering vanilla items, I'd have upped their cost or put a perk requirement on the starting ones. Automated defenses should be a later stage luxury. I actually love turrets, and don't want to replace your need for them fully, especially in the mid to late game, where having your settlers on production would be more important. So reducing defense requirements in the early to mid game actually sounds like a perfect idea to push gameplay in the direction of treating turrets like a luxury instead of a requirement.

Defense is a tough one, because if you artificially inflate the numbers, your actual ability to fight off a raid isn't accurately measured. For example, if the Martial plot gave 15 defense to start - it's still just one guy standing behind a post, whereas 3 turrets (which also provide 15 defense together) are basically the combined equivalent of a dozen settlers with pipe-rifles.

Definitely sounds like defense needs to be bolstered - but perhaps instead of direct bumps to Martial plots, we could do it some other way? For example, reduce the defense penalty on homes by half. Or create some low-tech alternatives to turrets that add to defenses - maybe we need some more non-technological traps in the game?


Does the current balancing assume settlements will support each other in the future, or balanced for each settlement being self sufficient?
The balance was definitely built around self-sufficiency, I spent a lot of time building Sim Settlements and Industrial Revolution in spreadsheets. When I finally get to the point of coding proper shared resources (not the half-baked method Bethesda used of literally "eating and drinking" food and water items from other workbenches...), I'll probably have to re-balance all of the numbers accordingly.


What settlement sizes are expected to be capable of being self sufficient, producing all their food, water, defense, power, and happiness?
Every size settlement should be self-sufficient, just not with plots alone. Using a 2x2 square for water when a pair of tiny hand-pumps will do seems wasteful for 3 folks just trying to survive.
 
After rereading my initial post, I realize it could be taken in a negative way. Just want to say it wasn't meant that way. These questions have been rattling around for a while and kinda dumped out all at once. However, I do have a few more follow up questions and comments.

1. At what turning point would you be expecting the defense and happiness needs to be met and plots start to advance to lvl 2? It seems like 10 or possibly 15 settlers would be that turning point.

Unless a player is modding their charisma stats, it seems like having the town be in excess production at 15, and a full blown city at 20, seems a little high. I use mods to boost my charisma to 20, but it seems most players wouldn't normally go past 6 at max. Just to get Local Leader. If 15 -20 would be the size required for starting Adv. Industrial and investigating new tech, that would leave out a few players. That might impact some Xbox players as well I believe, since above 13-15 seems to be where they would need to start reducing textures and having possible performance issues. At least that's what it seems like from reading the forums.

. . . Any suggestions on how we could imply this as a good play style? I love to make as many things as possible intuitive, with visual or audio cues, and UI pieces that point you in that direction as opposed to pop-up messages and required video watching or forum reading...

I can't think of a way to drive a player to not hooking power up right away through the UI. Maybe because the game seems to always drive a player to fill the needs right away. It is what drove me to create the Hunter-Gatherer mod. I never got the hint plots were meant to be kept at lvl 1 till a settlement grew in size. The only thing I can think of right now is a boiled down version of your settlement growth statement. That would be an additional message window when first playing the Holotape. Perhaps instead of lvl 1 plots being completely dark, maybe having some candles or lanterns inside for a small light source. Maybe even a small fire pit that would give light and be used for cooking, etc.. Being completely dark, they always scream upgrade me when I see them.

. . . Defense is a tough one, because if you artificially inflate the numbers, your actual ability to fight off a raid isn't accurately measured. For example, if the Martial plot gave 15 defense to start - it's still just one guy standing behind a post, whereas 3 turrets (which also provide 15 defense together) are basically the combined equivalent of a dozen settlers with pipe-rifles.

Definitely sounds like defense needs to be bolstered - but perhaps instead of direct bumps to Martial plots, we could do it some other way? For example, reduce the defense penalty on homes by half. Or create some low-tech alternatives to turrets that add to defenses - maybe we need some more non-technological traps in the game?. . .

The idea I loved the most was the barracks JtBryant had in the beta of his mod. Having roving guards really felt like a settlement defense, instead of random turrets everywhere. Plus they roamed, so no need to place them at certain points of the settlement. The npc's used up food and water, their payment, and actually provided a meaningful defense boost in an attack by adding another gun in the fight. Instead of just a artificial increase like a defense number boost. I even backed up a copy in case it disappears from the Nexus. Still run it alongside JtBryant's newer version. Being able to upgrade any settler's gear that is assigned to a defense plot would serve the same effect. However, I realize that is a possibility in the future.

It does seem like defense would be a problem if a 10 population settlement is to be self sufficient. Given the negative defense numbers in the other plots. Plus the negative happiness in Advanced Industrial which would require settlers to work a happiness plot as well later on. That is just a feeling though, I haven't run any numbers for it to prove or disprove that feeling.
 
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It does seem like defense would be a problem if a 10 population settlement is to be self sufficient. Given the negative defense numbers in the other plots. Plus the negative happiness in Advanced Industrial which would require settlers to work a happiness plot as well later on. That is just a feeling though, I haven't run any numbers for it to prove or disprove that feeling.
Hmm I think a way that could be fixed if it's possible, would be to somehow add an option in the local governing that would increase the stat output of the plots. Now of course some people would in all likelihood, take advantage of this and use it in all settlements, but, I believe a majority would only use this feature for the smaller settlements.

As for the amount of settlers required for complete self-sufficiency, I agree it is a little too high for everyone, however, I do believe most of our users probably use a mod to increase charisma or may even have one that sets an upper limit right off the bat. Which includes me, as I do have a mod that allows 99 settlers. which I do believe, sets the number as soon as the save is loaded.

Also to answer your concern on the people taking it a negative way, I never got the vibe of the post, more or less I thought they were rather good and genuine questions. However, I would say this, might not be a bad idea to add some of the info kinggath gave to the wiki.
 
Hmm I think a way that could be fixed if it's possible, would be to somehow add an option in the local governing that would increase the stat output of the plots. Now of course some people would in all likelihood, take advantage of this and use it in all settlements, but, I believe a majority would only use this feature for the smaller settlements.

If adjusting plot outputs like that is possible, it could be added in the customization questions also. A question asking what your charisma is, and adjusting plot outputs slightly if the answer is below 5-6 charisma. Or possibly a scripted get value of player's charisma stat, and suto adjusting. Again, not sure if that's possible. I have zero experience in scripting for Fallout 4.

Also to answer your concern on the people taking it a negative way, I never got the vibe of the post, more or less I thought they were rather good and genuine questions. However, I would say this, might not be a bad idea to add some of the info kinggath gave to the wiki.

Ok, thanks for the verification. I agree that info is definitely heading for the wiki.
 
1. At what turning point would you be expecting the defense and happiness needs to be met and plots start to advance to lvl 2? It seems like 10 or possibly 15 settlers would be that turning point.
I really didn't have a timeframe for this because happiness is such a huge variable. I only anticipated it should take a decent amount of time, which is why the minimum time is 5 days. I assumed players would be filling the defense needs at all times. Like i said, the goal was never to completely replace vanilla objects with plots. Happiness is pretty tough to gauge timing on because there are so many factors involved that can screw it up.

Unless a player is modding their charisma stats, it seems like having the town be in excess production at 15, and a full blown city at 20, seems a little high. I use mods to boost my charisma to 20, but it seems most players wouldn't normally go past 6 at max. Just to get Local Leader. If 15 -20 would be the size required for starting Adv. Industrial and investigating new tech, that would leave out a few players. That might impact some Xbox players as well I believe, since above 13-15 seems to be where they would need to start reducing textures and having possible performance issues. At least that's what it seems like from reading the forums.
Getting to 15-20 settlers is pretty easy. If you go to Local Leader (which if you're focusing on settlements, you should get), you're at 17 settlers. I've always approached it from the perspective that not every town should have everything. It makes sense for some settlements to be smaller than others, and some to not be fully industrialized. Getting every building to level 3 seems to be most people's goal, but I've always assumed some settlements would remain lower level. There's no reason for a tiny farm settlement to need a neon lit level 3 gun store, for example. (though obviously, I'm not enforcing any of these thoughts and try to provide options for players to bypass the limitations)

Though really, my plan has always been to allow custom recruitment in Sim Settlements, where a combination of the settlements production rates and taxes determine how quickly settlers appear. So once that is implemented, it won't be much of a concern. Though that same system will also be designed to take space into account - which will make places like Hangman's Alley naturally stay lower on the civilization ladder which to me makes sense.

Xbox is always going to be a problem - I make a lot of decisions to help them out, but at the end of the day, I can't let it warp the mod. My hope has been that vanilla objects augmenting their settlements would allow them to get over these humps.
 
On the martial/defense issue of using turrets vs lower-tech defenses.

I think if there were more variations of the Guard Post that could scale upward a bit in defense, that would go a long way toward solving this issue. That or something that would reset Traps automatically instead of it being a manual repair process on each one. I'd be much more willing to use a low-tech pipe-turret trap if it would reset itself :P

Also: perhaps on the issue of Power, is it possible to give the Building Plans a flag of "NeedsPowerToOperate" and it won't reduce the HUD meter if that flag is set to no? I personally think a big reason people power everything is to get the meter maxed out honestly :P

Maybe the upgrade time is slowed, but not stopped on a building without power if it has that flag set to true (perhaps 10 days to upgrade to level 2 instead of 5?). This idea works better using the new BuildingPlanPath system really since that would let each level make the decision independently vs the old system.

Might not really work well, just spit-balling ways to maybe find that balance.
 
I would definitely make traps self-reset if I added any custom ones - the manual resetting is absurd, no idea why Beth landed on that decision.

I could definitely flag the buildings to not reduce the HUD meter - I just can't get the red power icon to go away without disabling the ability to wire them up completely (at least I haven't found a way yet).
 
Perhaps an Advanced Martial plot, that would have higher defense stats at all levels, but would require at least 1 Advanced Industrial plot in the settlement to build? Going along with the idea of older plots being destroyed to make room for more advanced versions.

Basically start with Residential and Agriculture, add in some Martial and Industrial. Then around 10-15 settlers, Industrial and Martial would be torn down and replaced with higher producing Advanced Industrial and Advanced Martial plots
 
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After thought, this might require cutting the defense output of the standard Martial plot, and changing the requirements to none for lvl 1, 1 Industrial for lvl 2, and 2 Industrial for lvl 3. Then the Advanced Martial would have the above requirements, but require Advanced Industrial only, instead of Industrial or Advanced Industrial.
 
I'm just worried about a resource nerf ever happening. I want my large settlements that have been there for a long time feel like they are producing stuff and that the world can start to grow again. The beginning should feel somewhat of a struggle since you have to go out and scav but that was the issue with vanilla is you ALWAYS had to scav so you couldn't think much about settlements. If you wanna play economic it should pay off so i don't have to go out and drag huge amounts of resources back if i wanna play that way late game. Vanilla never made me care for settlers. SS kinda does.

Also the Defense plots should benefit from the tool building. They should be able to upgrade to level 4 and maybe add a turret to the top to help. One of the cheap ones.
 
As far as production, I'm only really looking to nerf if something is broken. For example, if one ammo factory is somehow producing 500 rounds a day - that's a bug. Or if there's a way to shortcut to fatman ammo production and get a high-powered MIRV at level 10, that should probably be resolved.
 
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