Lazy settlers... Sandbox mod safe/compatible with SS?

[modus666]

On quite a few of the city plans, Clean and simple will work, it just needs a little help to backfill on the gaps where terrain was nudged or buildings were changed.

Probably not going to work in Sanctuary or Murkwater, but likely to work just fine at Abernathy as long as the terrain didn't get changed overly much.

the clean and simple series does flatten the terrain quite a bit. this makes it awesome for plot planning using sim settlements but probably not so compatible with city plans. the good part though is with the completed all in one mod you can choose which settlements to install and which to exclude so you can still use city plans on those settlements which you really like the plans for. just a little trial and error involved i suppose.

jenncave did a great job modifying all the vanilla settlements to make them cleaner and easy to build on. cant say enough good stuff about this mod. she recently completed all the vanilla settlements and put it in a single installer. highly recommend any sim settlement junkies try it out. link below... welll... nevermind cant post link but just hit the nexus for Clean and Simple - Settlement Startup

 

[tankthing]

In most cases, Clean and Simple would be "out of the box" compatible without those terrain edits. While it's out of scope for RotC, I've actually got a lot of faith that the community will come out with additional builds that support a whole host of mod dependencies.

Myself, I've got some PLANZ for the Completely Empty sanctuary mod and I'm looking into Clean and Simple for quite a few other spots where I think I'd like to do a build where the grass isn't poking through every damn floor.

 

[SheWildWolf]

Well for some reason my last save decided it was going to crash Fallout and then the computer if I tried it again; tried resaver on it to no good effect.

So I decided to try and survive without Scrap Everything and a couple other thing just to see how I would design settlements taking that into account. We'll see how it works or if I have a psychotic break.

I wish you much luck! You can do it! And if the debris and stuff gets to be too much and you are thinking about getting SE again, try C&S first. You can pick and choose individual settlements, which you can then merge yourself, or you can choose from one of the premerged options. It's a good alternative.. and makes the land nice and level for SS building. (Almost too level for RotC though, be warned, as stated above which I just now noticed, sorry no coffee yet this morning, hence the post edit )

 

[SheWildWolf]

On quite a few of the city plans, Clean and simple will work, it just needs a little help to backfill on the gaps where terrain was nudged or buildings were changed.

Probably not going to work in Sanctuary or Murkwater, but likely to work just fine at Abernathy as long as the terrain didn't get changed overly much.

Have you checked out the Grounded mod yet? It has some blocks in it's "Decor" section, dead grass mounds, or just dirt... turning off the surface snapping in PE and pushing them down below the surface fills in the holes well in areas.

 

[tankthing]

Oh yes, and while I love Grounded a ton, I can't use it for RotC settlement building so it's kind of grounded out of my load order until I come back out of build mode at some future date.

 

[Rangermanlv]

F4SE is used by Transfer Settlements, Place Everywhere or any other mod that needs enhanced support for things beyond what the base game offers. Better Console and the ingame Bodyslide thing are two others.

Place Anywhere is not primarily a scrapping tool. It is limited to anything you could highlight in console and disable/markfordelete.

Unfortunately for all of us, Bethesda baked a lot of the ground cluter, bushes and other nonsense into the ground layers of the settlement. How Scrap Everything and other scrapping mods work is they break the precombined objects that are made up of any number of pieces into the component pieces and add scrap recipes to them by object type.

So your mileage may vary. You may have a machine powerful enough to see only a minor hit on fps for all that power, and you might be on an xbox where you need every cpu cycle just to play the game and breaking precombineds points your save straight into the mouth of the leviathan.

For my personal games, I use Scrap Everything because I hate those grass bits every bit as much as you do. For RotC builds, I can't use it without creating dependencies on SE that I can't be sure is loaded.

This is a complicated subject and you're asking the right questions.

<Edited for length>

Ok thanks for the very detailed info. So i'm wondering a few things now. Knowing what Spring Cleaning and Scrap Everything generally do can you think of a way that one of those types of mods would break what SS and/or ROtC is trying to do?

I'm trying to narrow down what happened to my settlement when I updated to 3.1.2 for SS and ROtC, not because i'm looking to blame anything Kinggath has done, since it's fairly obvious that this probably only happened to a very few people, but to know where I went wrong and/or see if it's possibly some totally unrelated mod to settlements that might have injected some kind of script issue or whatever caused it that made all the ROtC mapped details except for actual plots vanish and not be able to be redrawn, even if I went to a new settlement that i'm pretty sure I hadn't even touched yet with any kind of building or scrapping. On that save it wont build a new ROtC settlement even. I switched to WSMode and it doesn't even lay down the marker tiles.

I am leaning toward Spring Cleaning somehow causing this since it and the other "cleaning" mods have gotten a lot of discussion in here. But I by far have no specific evidence to tell me this is what happened, partially because I am not a mod programer and only have some average knowledge about what mods probably will or wont play nice together and some passing experience with load orders and such.

What I am doing right now is I have started a brand new game and I am not scrapping ANYTHING in any settlement before i've had a chance to get a few companions completed for their perk and having ROtC build it's initial design. I'm thinking possibly scrapping something that ROtC was expecting to see to delete based on it's city map may have started a snowball effect in my savegames that eventually reared it's ugly head when I updated SS and ROtC and refreshed some cities to see the new changes Kinggath had done, but again I have no specific evidence of this.

I did try running Fallrim tools ReSaver on my save game. But since he specifically says on the info page that unattached instances are part of how Fallout 4 runs and he says in the ReSaver program that non-existent form instances are part of the way some mods run, there basically wasn't anything I could do with my savegame. It says I have 10 unattached instances and 60 non-existent form instances with 47 active mods so if that tells you anything it may be another indicator as to what was going wrong since I have no clue how to read those Script Instance codes. I should also note that I never had a problem in the game with Spring Cleaning before, and since I have a fairly above average system i've probably never noticed any kind of FPS loss in my games.

Also for anyone in this thread who's not familiar with what happened to my game you can look here https://simsettlements.com/site/index.php?posts/32064/
it was definately a wake up call to the possible issues you can have with mods that don't like to play together well.

 

[Rangermanlv]

Oh yes, and while I love Grounded a ton, I can't use it for RotC settlement building so it's kind of grounded out of my load order until I come back out of build mode at some future date.

Yea I just wish someone would come up with something like Spring Cleaning that doesn't break pre combines. Even if it's just limited to trees and grass and bushes and such. That's almost always the only things i'm scrapping in settlements just for a better looking estetic to the area, I mean c'mon, your here long enough to gather up a bunch of scrap materials to build homes and businesses and security outposts and you didn't want to cut down the big ugly brown bush that's sticking up thru your floor?

 

[tankthing]

You can't break precombined objects that include the trees without breaking the precombined objects in the first place. That's the exact problem. There's no way to break just the trees loose without regenerating the precombined objects underneath.

The difference in rendering complexity could be what is causing a lot of the CTDs we've been seeing.

It's actually very unlikely that SS would be causing any trouble with SE or Spring Cleaning because it doesn't touch any of the precombined objects. The weird conjunction of issues culminates in the system needing more resources to register the extra stuff we're putting into the settlements PLUS the precombined objects and the breaking of previs and all the other mess created by scrap everything that you're mostly just powering through on your computers with less settlements built out.

Add to that a heavy script load from an extremely powerful settlement framework overlay and things start popping.

These unintended side effects are emergent behavior from the interaction of multiple variables causing undesirable effects. That's part of what makes them such a royal I love you to to try to troubleshoot and why those of us trying to do support tend to focus on making sure everything is on the latest version and is truly functioning correctly. The idea is that if we sort out the low level issues, the higher level issues should smooth out over time.

 

[SheWildWolf]

What about this mod? Would it break stuff?

 

[Rangermanlv]

What about this mod? Would it break stuff?

It sounds like this mod author is taking a very deliberate and careful approach to being able to scrap things he is calling "Decals" which I guess could be considered another correct term. So for that. HOWEVER; he doesn't say anything about if this mod does or does not keep from breaking precombines so i'd still be hesitant to use it without knowing that. Also this mod so far from what I can tell of the latest version, seems to be limited to only Sanctuary and Red Rocket for most of it's scrapping abilities so all in all I will probably stick with Spring Cleaning for now since what it does it does everywhere in the Commonwealth, and hope sometime in the future someone can simply take one of the existing scrapping mods that's been abandoned and modify it so it doesn't break precombines.

 

[Rangermanlv]

You can't break precombined objects that include the trees without breaking the precombined objects in the first place. That's the exact problem. There's no way to break just the trees loose without regenerating the precombined objects underneath.

The difference in rendering complexity could be what is causing a lot of the CTDs we've been seeing.

It's actually very unlikely that SS would be causing any trouble with SE or Spring Cleaning because it doesn't touch any of the precombined objects. The weird conjunction of issues culminates in the system needing more resources to register the extra stuff we're putting into the settlements PLUS the precombined objects and the breaking of previs and all the other mess created by scrap everything that you're mostly just powering through on your computers with less settlements built out.

Add to that a heavy script load from an extremely powerful settlement framework overlay and things start popping.

These unintended side effects are emergent behavior from the interaction of multiple variables causing undesirable effects. That's part of what makes them such a royal I love you to to try to troubleshoot and why those of us trying to do support tend to focus on making sure everything is on the latest version and is truly functioning correctly. The idea is that if we sort out the low level issues, the higher level issues should smooth out over time.

Ok so lets say I AM breaking some precombines when I used Spring Cleaning, even with the limited usage i'm doing it with; is there a way to see what i've broken in the savegame file and fix it with any program you know of? I'm kind of assuming it may or may not be something I could see with Fallrim Tools perhaps.

Also i'm a bit curious how the game handles the items it DOES let you scrap in the vanilla game. Is it simply programed into the code of the game to do it in the correct way without breaking precombines somehow? And is that programing possibly a way to tack on to other non vanilla objects so they could be safely scrapped?

Thank you for all this info Tankthing. This is really informative.

 

[RayBo]

My humble opinion for folks having problems with SS and Scrap Everything. I don't recommend it. I have an above normal pc + 2 x 1080ti and that combo kills my FPS and mid-game everything dies.

As others suggested and has worked very well for me. I am doing most everything everyone is suggesting:

Clean and Simple "A must for Sanctuary" or a MOD like it. Even if it means that is the only settlement mod you use in Sanctuary other than SS. "Sanctuary Lite" by the same author is a superior mod for NAV mesh issues and works fantastically with SS. Note: I do not run ROTC in Sanctuary. I have found once Sanctuary gets hosed so does my entire game. What I am saying is similar to tankthing "hire a professional to clean that dump" and not screw up all the quest markers and nav-mesh. Jenncave, Hozsa and Crimsomrider are the authors I trust to clean up a nasty settlement and even fix/upgrade the vanilla nav-mesh to better than before.
Place Everywhere.
IMP - Invisible Marker Pack. I use this a lot. What I have noticed is settlers will go to those markers while SS is catching up. Plus, it really makes your settlements and settlers come alive. If you have a bunch of SS it can take a couple of levels before all our settlers to start to thaw out. Also, while not being able to place IMP markers in SS plots you can push these Markers right up to or just inside and this is cool. Real cool.
Use the Fallrim tool if needed. Back-up them saves. All the uninstalling will orphan scripts. Suggest, get a good load order that is to your liking then start a new game and if you have that "new Mod urge" keep it to things at the bottom as not to reshuffle the top-core Mods load order. Preferably don't remove or shift loadorder of scripted mods after starting a new game.
The Junktown scrap mod has potential if the author ever updates but for now I use markfordelete or Place Everywhere as Shadowwalker and others have said.


The above has worked very well for me. 200+ Mods 175 plugs. No FPS shutter or lag and almost no-CTD ever. At least until I decide to binge like a modoholic on new untested mods and lose 200hrs of game.

 

[SheWildWolf]

My humble opinion for folks having problems with SS and Scrap Everything. I don't recommend it. I have an above normal pc + 2 x 1080ti and that combo kills my FPS and mid-game everything dies.

As others suggested and has worked very well for me. I am doing most everything everyone is suggesting:

Clean and Simple "A must for Sanctuary" or a MOD like it. Even if it means that is the only settlement mod you use in Sanctuary other than SS. "Sanctuary Lite" by the same author is a superior mod for NAV mesh issues and works fantastically with SS. Note: I do not run ROTC in Sanctuary. I have found once Sanctuary gets hosed so does my entire game. What I am saying is similar to tankthing "hire a professional to clean that dump" and not screw up all the quest markers and nav-mesh. Jenncave, Hozsa and Crimsomrider are the authors I trust to clean up a nasty settlement and even fix/upgrade the vanilla nav-mesh to better than before.
Place Everywhere.
IMP - Invisible Marker Pack. I use this a lot. What I have noticed is settlers will go to those markers while SS is catching up. Plus, it really makes your settlements and settlers come alive. If you have a bunch of SS it can take a couple of levels before all our settlers to start to thaw out. Also, while not being able to place IMP markers in SS plots you can push these Markers right up to or just inside and this is cool. Real cool.
Use the Fallrim tool if needed. Back-up them saves. All the uninstalling will orphan scripts. Suggest, get a good load order that is to your liking then start a new game and if you have that "new Mod urge" keep it to things at the bottom as not to reshuffle the top-core Mods load order. Preferably don't remove or shift loadorder of scripted mods after starting a new game.
The Junktown scrap mod has potential if the author ever updates but for now I use markfordelete or Place Everywhere as Shadowwalker and others have said.


The above has worked very well for me. 200+ Mods 175 plugs. No FPS shutter or lag and almost no-CTD ever. At least until I decide to binge like a modoholic on new untested mods and lose 200hrs of game.

I tried Sanctuary Lite, even without any other mods that modify settlements anywhere else in game (had SS installed but had not run the holotape yet) and I was having issues with Garvey and the gang and where they would stand/patrol/or even enter Sanctuary. Garvey was doing a once around Sanctuary (if he even made it over the bridge, 3/5 times he'd just stop on the RR side of the bridge and not move) and then he'd head straight for the retaining wall, walk/fall into the water, and get stuck under the bridge. The rest of them would just sort of hover in the middle of the road and not go anywhere, and at one point I found Sturges at Red Rocket, standing by the workshop bench. At the time I tried the mod though, I had SE installed... I do not know enough about things to say for sure if this had anything to do with it, though. I ended up giving up trying on Sanctuary Lite. I would prefer that one over her entire C&S series or anything else because Sanctuary is where I want to do my build, but having the NPCs bug out was making me worry something was breaking in my game. Have you ever run across the NPCs bugging out like that with Sanctuary Lite installed?

 

[RayBo]

ha ha, fortunately not-yet.

I think I know why. The Lite has no NPC animation markers left. If you haven't run the SS holotape yet and haven't used a mod like IMP then the engine has no instruction for the NPCs within the settlement boundary.

What happened to me with the Garvy Crew is I start Sanctuary-up before going to Concord. IMP-markers and some workshop items like benches and security post. When I do the Quest I fast travel back, run the SS-holotape and quickly drop a few plots "away from the center".

I don't want to miss-lead anyone but in my game, NPC's hit the new locations "plots and markers like cats to laser-dots" once they got there. I was able to place things in locations that in other play-throughs had been problematic at best. I look at the IMP-markers as bait for the NPCs to hit and start using the SS plots early. The SAN-Lite version just reduces the NPC chance to hit paths or markers "other" than the ones I have given them.

In fact, in a "inner-monolog" kind of way, I was pleasantly dumb-founded with how well it all worked.

Anyway best of luck with whatever you try. I feel as if I should be asking you for advice, I pay a lot of attention to what you post on the Nexus. You are a well-respected community member.

BAIT

 

[SheWildWolf]

ha ha, fortunately not-yet.

I think I know why. The Lite has no NPC animation markers left. If you haven't run the SS holotape yet and haven't used a mod like IMP then the engine has no instruction for the NPCs within the settlement boundary.

What happened to me with the Garvy Crew is I start Sanctuary-up before going to Concord. IMP-markers and some workshop items like benches and security post. When I do the Quest I fast travel back, run the SS-holotape and quickly drop a few plots "away from the center".

I don't want to miss-lead anyone but in my game, NPC's hit the new locations "plots and markers like cats to laser-dots" once they got there. I was able to place things in locations that in other play-throughs that had been problematic at best. I look at the IMP-markers as bait for the NPCs to hit and start using the SS plots early. The SAN-Lite version just reduces the NPC chance to hit paths or markers "other" than the ones I have given them.

In fact, in a "inner-monolog" kind of way, I was pleasantly dumb-founded with how well it all worked.

BAIT

Ok, I downloaded IMP yesterday.. getting ready to start a new playthrough. I will do what you suggest and see if I can get better results than the last time I tried to use Lite. Because I really want to use it. I adore Jenncave's mods and hate going back to a vanilla Sanctuary... and since I've gotten rid of Scrap Everything, I kind of need her mod.

 

[RayBo]

I really do hope it works well for you. In FO4, "pleasantly dumb-founded" is a really good thing.

Jenncave is Wonderful!

 

[damanding]

Ok so lets say I AM breaking some precombines when I used Spring Cleaning, even with the limited usage i'm doing it with; is there a way to see what i've broken in the savegame file and fix it with any program you know of? I'm kind of assuming it may or may not be something I could see with Fallrim Tools perhaps.

Also i'm a bit curious how the game handles the items it DOES let you scrap in the vanilla game. Is it simply programed into the code of the game to do it in the correct way without breaking precombines somehow? And is that programing possibly a way to tack on to other non vanilla objects so they could be safely scrapped?

Thank you for all this info Tankthing. This is really informative.

The way the game handles precombines and vanilla scrapping is that all the items that were scrappable in a purely vanilla game were never part of precombines to begin with. There's no way to scrap items that are part of precombines without breaking precombines.

 

[C B Wright]

NEVER ever move a workbench. You know not what you are breaking when you do.

I wouldn't have to move my workbenches if Bethesda wouldn't keep putting them in the wrong places.

 

[tankthing]

I wouldn't have to move my workbenches if Bethesda wouldn't keep putting them in the wrong places.

It's actually better to move the entire settlement around the workbench than it is the workbench.

The challenge I'd offer is to watch a tutorial on how to create a new settlement and look for yourself how many things get tied to that workbench. Moving one is not and never has been a good idea.

 

[tankthing]

Ok so lets say I AM breaking some precombines when I used Spring Cleaning, even with the limited usage i'm doing it with; is there a way to see what i've broken in the savegame file and fix it with any program you know of? I'm kind of assuming it may or may not be something I could see with Fallrim Tools perhaps.

Also i'm a bit curious how the game handles the items it DOES let you scrap in the vanilla game. Is it simply programed into the code of the game to do it in the correct way without breaking precombines somehow? And is that programing possibly a way to tack on to other non vanilla objects so they could be safely scrapped?

Thank you for all this info Tankthing. This is really informative.

There's no such thing as breaking "some" precombined objects. This is on a similar level to saying "a little bit pregnant".

They're broken or they're not.

If they're broken, the game has to spawn in and individually rotate and angle the elements while you're looking at them.

Once you break them, then "putting them back" by uninstalling Scrap Everything simply restores the original objects.