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AddOns as ESL

C

celery551

New Member
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27
I haven't seen any references to this, but is there any reason the AddOn packs wont work as ESLs? I have a fair number of mods, and the AddOn packs take up a fair number of slots. I know how to manually convert ESPs to ESLs, but haven't tries yet. I'd prefer if the native mod type was ESL so that they can be updated easier.

Thanks,
celery551
 
ESL's are better for when the mod is "done" - they can't be edited easily once made. They have additional limitations that make them unsuited to large mods or actively developed mods. Considering their size, City Plans and Leader Packs would be better as ESLs.
 
@celery551 It's a combination of:
  • Some of them are too big to fit in the 4096 form ID limit (technical note: anything that says there's a 2048 limit is wrong, because form IDs between 0x0 and 0x7FF do work in an ESL, not just 0x800 and 0xFFF as usually reported)
  • Legacy support, since many users are still running 1-year+ old versions of NMM which don't work with the new format
  • If you ever released an ESP without compacting your form IDs first, it's a logistical nightmare to simultaneously maintain an ESL and ESP version; you effectively either need to force everyone over to the new ESL version exclusively, or tell them that they'll need to do a "clean" install of the new ESP version since all of the ESP's form IDs will have changed out of necessity
  • Ignorance about the limitations of the .esl format by mod authors. I suspect that most addon packs are small enough to fit in the size limit, but mod authors just don't realize it. For example, from a technical perspective, there's nothing stopping even the Year One Mega Pack from working as an .esl
Yagisan said:
ESL's are better for when the mod is "done" - they can't be edited easily once made.
Click to expand...
It's true that you can't edit an .esl in the CK directly, but in practice this is not an issue. It just takes some basic knowledge of FO4Edit and it's easy to work within the limitations.
 
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EyeDeck said:
@celery551 It's a combination of:
  • Some of them are too big to fit in the 4096 form ID limit (technical note: anything that says there's a 2048 limit is wrong, because form IDs between 0x0 and 0x7FF do work in an ESL, not just 0x800 and 0xFFF as usually reported)
  • Legacy support, since many users are still running 1-year+ old versions of NMM which don't work with the new format
  • If you ever released an ESP without compacting your form IDs first, it's a logistical nightmare to simultaneously maintain an ESL and ESP version; you effectively either need to force everyone over to the new ESL version exclusively, or tell them that they'll need to do a "clean" install of the new ESP version since all of the ESP's form IDs will have changed out of necessity
  • Ignorance about the limitations of the .esl format by mod authors. I suspect that most addon packs are small enough to fit in the size limit, but mod authors just don't realize it. For example, from a technical perspective, there's nothing stopping even the Year One Mega Pack from working as an .esl

It's true that you can't edit an .esl in the CK directly, but in practice this is not an issue. It just takes some basic knowledge of FO4Edit and it's easy to work within the limitations.
Click to expand...

I was hoping you would see and respond to this thread. If you are also IDEK then you and Coot’s have been a huge help and have been so kind in helping to educate us novices. This will be a post I save.

Side note - integration of .esl, creation club content, and NMM all into a working game is rather, enjoyable and fun, and appreciated by folks who want to learn about all this stuff.

not my thread or question, but Thank you!
 
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EyeDeck said:
  • If you ever released an ESP without compacting your form IDs first, it's a logistical nightmare to simultaneously maintain an ESL and ESP version; you effectively either need to force everyone over to the new ESL version exclusively, or tell them that they'll need to do a "clean" install of the new ESP version since all of the ESP's form IDs will have changed out of necessity
  • Ignorance about the limitations of the .esl format by mod authors. I suspect that most addon packs are small enough to fit in the size limit, but mod authors just don't realize it. For example, from a technical perspective, there's nothing stopping even the Year One Mega Pack from working as an .esl
Click to expand...

I wish the CK would actually start at the beginning when adding new forms, instead of at FF0000 or something equally ridiculous. Then, I think 90% of all mods could be converted to ESL just like that, without the need to compact anything.
It's true that you can't edit an .esl in the CK directly, but in practice this is not an issue. It just takes some basic knowledge of FO4Edit and it's easy to work within the limitations.
Click to expand...


I think that is a bad thing. If the CK would allow you to edit ESLs, you could just keep editing the same file, without having to click "convert to light master" each time. IMO, they should have made ESL to be the new default, with an option to create an ESP, if you actually manage to hit the 4kiForm limit.
 
pra said:
I wish the CK would actually start at the beginning when adding new forms, instead of at FF0000 or something equally ridiculous.
Click to expand...
The stupid thing is, there's even a section in the plugin header that controls what the next new form ID should be. If you have a plugin that goes no higher than, say, 0xF00, and you change that field to 0xF01, then you load it back up in the CK and create a new form, it'll go into 0x1000+ anyway. Annoying.
I think that is a bad thing. If the CK would allow you to edit ESLs, you could just keep editing the same file, without having to click "convert to light master" each time. IMO, they should have made ESL to be the new default, with an option to create an ESP, if you actually manage to hit the 4kiForm limit.
Click to expand...
I have to agree there. I think the reason it is the way it is is to deal with deleted forms. With an ESP or ESM, you can delete a form and you'll never even risk using that form ID again, just to make sure that you don't accidentally transmute an actor into a keyword or something. With ESL (or compacted ESPs), you have to be careful about that. It sure would be nice if my workflow didn't have to be "save ESP -> load in xEdit -> run compaction script -> resave -> reload in CK -> convert to ESL", though.

I have to view the ESP as sort of a legacy format for most mods now, though, from an end-user standpoint anyway. There are still valid reasons to use it, e.g. really big mods, or for patches between mods for example, but for the most part there's no functional reason that like 80 or 90% of new mods shouldn't be using the new format. It's just that information about dealing with the format is scarce, and even the CK wiki gives inaccurate and/or misleading information about it.

As for the 4k form ID thing, I'm actually curious where the 2k idea came from. It's true that the CK's "compact form IDs" button only renumbers between 0x800 and 0xFFF, however it doesn't seem like there's any actual reason for that. At least, I tried loading the Year One Mega Pack into xEdit (which is ~2800 form IDs) and had it renumber every form ID starting at 0xFF, ticked the ESL flag and changed the extension, and loaded it into a game, and there were no issues doing that at all.

Out of curiosity, I just decided to see what would happen if I loaded an .esl with form IDs over 0xFFF, and it appears that the game just ignores the first 10 bytes of the form ID; the plugin was 0x00C or something in the ESL load order (0xFE00Cxxx), and the one form ID I changed to 0x1002 just loaded into 0xFE00C002. So it seems that not only is 0x000-0xFFF good to go, but 0x1000+ isn't even necessarily invalid since the form ID just wraps around. Of course, there's absolutely no advantage to doing that, but the game doesn't crash and burn as hard as I expected it would.
 
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I have consciously been making all my new smaller stuff .esl, but because I'm liable to make and delete shit in my SS-mod I've been sticking to .esp
 
JunkTown settlements-waterworld
JunkTown-Fences
JunkTown-EXTREME
Flotsam and Jetsam
all have ESL version and so far no one is screaming at me that I broke there game:)
 
There are so many mods that, mostly old ones, that could be ESL's if the MA would convert.

I have all the junk town shenigans as ESL's and no problem. :)

John
 
I will try to turn JunkTown into an ESL as optional file for next update ;)
 
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