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Suggestion Soldier Needs mechanic needs some tuning/documentation

Dane

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I had incorrectly posted this in the main SimSettlements forum, oops

I started a new game to try out the newer recruitment mechanics etc, and despite having about 15k worth of resources in the recruiting fund, it doesn't matter because I've never been able to fill all 3 bars. I kinda think I understand how filling the bars works (have recruits assigned to worker role and assigned to plots?) but here I am near level 60, with over a hundred recruits, and I've never managed to use the recruitment system. Running a new raid is a tedious matter of waiting for Jammer/Recruiting Station to grow population by 1 per day, finding the new recruits and manually changing their role to warrior.

I like the concept of the new mechanic, because the old approach of just showering you with tons of recruits was a bit much, but it feels like a really hard binary check - bars not full, you get NOTHING, bars full, you get EVERYTHING (presumably, I haven't actually managed to fill the bars yet). Consider pro-rating it, i.e. "your bars are half full, you get X recruit(s), 75% full, Y recruits"

Also I'm aware documentation is in progress, really looking forward to when there is something offline to read about how this works. Thanks!
 
I usually turn off soldier needs for first Outpost and first 2 vassals, and that's with Jammers storyline. I know it's kind of a cheat, but otherwise I would be well into the 3rd chapter before I could run attacks. Also, I have all settlements start between lvls 1 and 2 so I don't have to build them from the ground up.
 
800px-Conqueror_NPCRoles (1).png
https://simsettlements.com/web/wiki...ror_NPCRoles.png/800px-Conqueror_NPCRoles.png

Each warrior/guard/patrol requires 10W/10R/10E

Every worker requires 10W/10R/0E

Additionally, each of your vassal Civilians require 10 rations.

100 Warriors require 1000 Wages/1000 Rations/1000 Equipment just to maintain a full bar.

Plots produce W/R/E: Commercial plots produce wages. Ag plots produce Rations. Industrial plots produce Equipment. The higher the level the plot the more it produces. Higher settlement morale produces even more. Workers in an outpost produce more than other roles. Vassals produce more than Outposts. Plots in Vassals at the highest morale produce the most of all.

The highest production possible will be from a level 3 (or 4, if Ag) plot in a Vassal at max Morale (5 up arrows).

Currently, a commercial plot filling these requirements (level 3 in a Vassal at max Morale) produces 64 Wages. An Industrial plot filling these requirements (level 3 in a Vassal at max Morale) produces 64 Equipment. An Ag plot filling these requirements (level 4 in a Vassal at max Morale) produces 80 Rations.

(Production decreases as morale decreases and also if the plot is in an Outpost and not a Vassal.
Workers produce more in an Outpost than other Roles. Level one plots produce about half as much as level 3's.)

For example, a level 4 Ag plot in a vassal at max Morale provides enough rations for 8 Civilians and/or Recruits.

A level 4 Ag plot in an Outpost worked by a Worker at max morale produces 75 rations.

The key is to maintain the highest possible morale. Never exceed the right role ratio if at all possible.
 
What 'm' getting from your post is that with my population and all these plots being operated, I should not be having problems keeping these bars filled. I have no idea what the issue is then. How can you view this stuff? It seems a massive chore to walk around cycling menu options to switch recruits from worker to anything else. Equipment seems to be very easily filled but not the other two, and I don't really understand what has to be done to fix that. It shouldn't be this puzzling from the first settlement captured onward, I'd be OK with it getting progressively harder but it starts as an inscrutable wall and never gets more understandable.
 
It's actually not that hard or complicated. Your first mistake was turning off solider needs, going on a recruitment spree and then trying to use the needs system.

For wages you need to build commercial plots until the meter fills.
For rations you need enough Vassals supplying you food, take more vassals until that meter fills.
For equipment you need industrial plots.

Dump any spare chems and booze you have in the supply container on the city manager desk to drive up settlement happiness > which will upgrade plots > which will increase productivity > which will help increase moral > which will fill those meters real quick.

That's it in a nutshell.
 
It's actually not that hard or complicated. Your first mistake was turning off solider needs, going on a recruitment spree and then trying to use the needs system.

For wages you need to build commercial plots until the meter fills.
For rations you need enough Vassals supplying you food, take more vassals until that meter fills.
For equipment you need industrial plots.

Dump any spare chems and booze you have in the supply container on the city manager desk to drive up settlement happiness > which will upgrade plots > which will increase productivity > which will help increase moral > which will fill those meters real quick.

That's it in a nutshell.

Except for one glaring inconsistency...... Raiders don't work, and don't want to have to build settlements. I understand the overall premise of w/r/e system, and after my initial Outpost and a few vassals, I turn soldier needs back on to simulate trying to keep your raiders interested. But the initial needs should be scaled lower at first and gradually go up as your empire expands. But this is just my personal opinion, and my work around works for my playthroughs.
 
It seems a massive chore to walk around cycling menu options to switch recruits from worker to anything else.

I feel you. This is why I turn auto change role to off before I take my first Outpost.

When you use auto change role on, all role changes are determined by plots.

The only way to control roles and keep the right role ratio is to control plots.

You'd have to build plots according to the right role ratio.

For auto change role to work perfectly, you'd have to always have two recreation plots (warrior role) for every other martial (guard), commercial, ag, or industrial plot (worker).

With auto change role on, every time you conqueror as an outpost a city plan that isn't built to this specification (2 recs for each other guard/work plot) you'll have warriors converted to other roles not in the right ratio for best morale. And you will need to either add more rec plots yourself or convert existing plots according to the right ratio.

So much easier to just turn auto change role off, let them stay warriors, and then convert a few as needed/wanted.

Equipment seems to be very easily filled but not the other two, and I don't really understand what has to be done to fix that.

Equipment is easier because civilians/workers don't use it. If you have many workers assigned to Industrial plots they will produce what the plot level produces and simultaneously not eat up any Equipment. This can lead to the Equipment bar outpacing the others.

Rations go the other way in most cases. Civilians also need rations so as you add vassal civilians to help increase production they also eat up some of the rations being produced. You need more Ag plot than the others to keep things balanced.
 
don't want to have to build settlements.

Why would you not prebuild settlements up to L3 if all you are going to be doing is raiding them?
There's a bigger reward when you take them, not to mention the load it takes off the game as you play because there is no upgrading happening.
 
Why would you not prebuild settlements up to L3 if all you are going to be doing is raiding them?
There's a bigger reward when you take them, not to mention the load it takes off the game as you play because there is no upgrading happening.
Tried that many times, only to get crashes and issues due to Xbox limitations. I have found that building up only the farms to start at level 1 or 2 has been the most stable setup on my system.

Don't get me wrong, there could also be conflicts with some of my other mods that I haven't found yet, but currently my setup is the most stable I've had since starting, so I'll stick with it for now.
 
Except for one glaring inconsistency...... Raiders don't work, and don't want to have to build settlements. I understand the overall premise of w/r/e system, and after my initial Outpost and a few vassals, I turn soldier needs back on to simulate trying to keep your raiders interested.

I subscribe to this very theory: raiders don't work and my raiders never farm!

My Outposts are exclusively recreation plots, martial plots (worked by warriors) unemployed warriors, and maybe one or two Conqueror Martial plots (guards).

Vassals are for production; outposts are for control.

It is slow in the beginning if you start with all 21 Raider recruits. It takes time to develop your first vassal to meet your raiders needs.

The soldier's needs system isn't just some arbitrary hurdle for recruitment. Its a delicate balance between Production and Control.

Ultimately you only need one well developed vassal to meet the needs of this first Outpost. You can raid other vassals as this first, main vassal is developing. Conqueror these others, leave them uncontrolled, reap their temporary rewards, lose them, then raid them again, rinse, repeat.

In the beginning you need to think tall and not wide. You don't have the man power to maintain control of multiple vassals.

Focus your control on one vassal, raid others over and over again as needed/wanted until this main vassal is developed to suit your needs.

The key is developing this first vassal appropriately. I build mine from the ground up.

City plans may be fun and challenging to assault, but they don't make good vassals.

If I was to take a city plan as my first vassal, I would tear it down! City plans are not built with Conqueror needs in mind. Think of all the food being wasted on your vassals's houses! And the extra defense you need to provide to keep them in fancy houses while your recruits are bunked up in shacks. At the very least, I'd convert plots to suit the needs of my Outpost/HQ.
 
It's actually not that hard or complicated. Your first mistake was turning off solider needs, going on a recruitment spree and then trying to use the needs system.

Hi, this isn't actually at all what I did, but thanks for your post nevertheless. I left all the options set to "hardcore" default except a handful (assign away from beds, the like) and proceeded to take Starlight with the first batch of free recruits, I never touched the Soldier Needs setting and never got any recruits out of donating supplies/caps. What I'm offering feedback on is that if you do this, as the content strongly suggests is the right way to play it, then it requires a lot of manual interaction with some very opaque systems that aren't explained ingame to the degree necessary to make it work. I'm not really looking for people to tell me how to make it work correctly, I'm saying the ingame system is too opaque and requires too much manual interaction at "hardcore" default settings. Needs some work.
 
This is very helpful, thanks.
I feel you. This is why I turn auto change role to off before I take my first Outpost.

When you use auto change role on, all role changes are determined by plots.

The only way to control roles and keep the right role ratio is to control plots.

You'd have to build plots according to the right role ratio.

For auto change role to work perfectly, you'd have to always have two recreation plots (warrior role) for every other martial (guard), commercial, ag, or industrial plot (worker).

With auto change role on, every time you conqueror as an outpost a city plan that isn't built to this specification (2 recs for each other guard/work plot) you'll have warriors converted to other roles not in the right ratio for best morale. And you will need to either add more rec plots yourself or convert existing plots according to the right ratio.

So much easier to just turn auto change role off, let them stay warriors, and then convert a few as needed/wanted./QUOTE]
 
I subscribe to this very theory: raiders don't work and my raiders never farm!

I tend to do something like this except more with slaves at my directly owned outposts and less with vassals, but yeah I don't try to have 1 raider recruit for every plot at all.
 
I tend to do something like this except more with slaves at my directly owned outposts and less with vassals, but yeah I don't try to have 1 raider recruit for every plot at all.

This is interesting.

Any production at an Outpost is problematic to some degree in terms of Control.

At any point, you can determine your Control needs via the war desk settlement report. Just add up all your w/r/e production. Total production=Total control needs.

Slaves/captives add 20 each to Control needs.

Every warrior recruit provides 25 Control. Every Guard recruit provides 50 control. (Interesting fact: a fully ranked Raider Legend roled as a guard only gives 100 Control. All other ranks are somewhere in between)

So multiple the number of warriors x25 + number of guards x50 to find the least amount of Control you can provide.

It is very much possible to produce more in an outpost than that outpost can control.

Consider a faction pack start: 5 recruits. HQ produces 50W/50R/50E. This requires 150 Control for Full Control. But 5 warriors only gives 125 Control. The right ratio for full control is 4 Warriors + 1 Guard. This gets you to 150 Control.

But as soon as you put down any Commercial. Ag. or Industrial plot, control is blown by exactly how much w/r/or e that plot produces. If any of these recruits are converted to workers you lose even more control: they produce more (need more control) and no longer provide any control themselves.

Slaves increase this problem because not only do you have to control what they produce but you have to control them as well.

If you like to fight this isn't a problem at all. You'll get to defend your Outpost quite a bit. In fact, I can think of quite a few reasons you wouldn't want to maintain total control. Most which involve maximizing production or wanting to get more defend missions.

Because I produce nothing in my Outposts, they require no control themselves. I never get defend missions. All control is exported to Vassals via patrols.

This is what I mean by the delicate balance between production and control. The more w/r/e you produce the harder it is to control. But maintaining total control requires giving up some amount of production capacity.

Figuring out the sweet spot is the fun.

Soldiers' needs is dynamic needs on steroids. Empire wide dynamic needs instead of the usual localized dynamic needs.

This is why recruitment is tied in. Unfettered recruitment either makes Control trivial on the one hand or it makes it impossible to bring production in line on the other.
 
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It's perhaps a bit cheesy but you can pile a ton of slaves at a single outpost and assign Strong to be leader of that outpost, and since he has the One Mutant Army trait he automatically crushes all enemy raids if you don't show up. I haven't run it long enough/built up enough outposts to see whether this completely prevents enemy raids at other outposts than the captive-heavy one, but you definitely still get enemy raids at your non-raider faction settlements so I don't this is particularly an exploit, just a useful trick.
 
It's perhaps a bit cheesy

Even bacon tastes better with cheese.

but you can pile a ton of slaves at a single outpost and assign Strong to be leader of that outpost, and since he has the One Mutant Army trait he automatically crushes all enemy raids if you don't show up.

This whole thing is complicated.

Strong's trait may help with Vanilla "help defend" misc quests. But I don't think that works with the full fledged, major quest Defend Vassal/Outpost Missions that the Conqueror mechanics can generate. The ones where 20 angry Gunners/Minutemen show up and try to kill all your Guards and take your settlement away from you.
 
I'm fairly sure they're the same thing, but even if it's an automatic win it's not thaaaaat big a help, I just verified that you also still get full blown enemy raids in your other settlements anyway.
 
Because I produce nothing in my Outposts, they require no control themselves. I never get defend missions.
An outpost that has no WRE production isn't attractive from a pillaging standpoint. So, in that regard, it makes total sense that one doesn't need to defend against enemy attacks.

There are other reasons to attack: namely, in some situations, the best strategy is to cut the head off the snake. Destabilize an outpost and its protected vassals become exposed. So, what would the mechanic be? Wouldn't touch the 'control vs WRE' mechanic with a 10 ft pole (not for this). It would be nice though if there were some check of factor(s) intrinsic to enemy (eg number of troops as surrogate for enemy strength) and once that threshold were crossed it would trigger a 'cut the head off the snake' attack.
 
An outpost that has no WRE production isn't attractive from a pillaging standpoint. So, in that regard, it makes total sense that one doesn't need to defend against enemy attacks.

There are other reasons to attack: namely, in some situations, the best strategy is to cut the head off the snake. Destabilize an outpost and its protected vassals become exposed. So, what would the mechanic be? Wouldn't touch the 'control vs WRE' mechanic with a 10 ft pole (not for this). It would be nice though if there were some check of factor(s) intrinsic to enemy (eg number of troops as surrogate for enemy strength) and once that threshold were crossed it would trigger a 'cut the head off the snake' attack.

I think in the jammer questline this is addressed with the story attacks.

As for faction packs.... I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented
 
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