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Discussion Understanding CTDs - Triangle of Death

snarkywriter

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This is the official discussion thread for the article "Understanding CTDs in The Triangle of Death (Sanctuary, Abernathy Farm, and Red Rocket)" available here:

https://www.simsettlements.com/site...sanctuary-abernathy-farm-and-red-rocket.6964/


All 3 parts of the original article have been updated/revised and officially transferred to the link above. Future Educational Vault articles will include links to discussion threads like this one so that everyone can discuss, provide feedback, etc. Thanks to everyone who has commented and contributed so far!
 
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:crazy:crazySnarky, where were you 3000 game hours ago.....:help

Seriously, another extremely well written and thought-out explanation. Well worth even seasoned FO4 players giveing it a once over.

No BS, I think I got a better understanding after your professional explanation.

Still, we’ll see if it gets The Fuzzy-Buddy-Woodfuzzy stamp of approval! :unknw

I think we are lucky to have you around and appreciate what you do in helping us play a more enjoyable game and have an all around better FO4 / Sim Settlement experience! :this

hahaha, almost missed it, auto correct “Sin Settlements” :good haha maybe?
 
Reading through this, I will not be doing a city-plan with Abernathy. Thanks!

--edit--

So Spectacle Island might be a good place to go whole-hog, because it's relatively remote? Plus I understand that it has a high build limit anyway.
 
Reading through this, I will not be doing a city-plan with Abernathy. Thanks!

--edit--

So Spectacle Island might be a good place to go whole-hog, because it's relatively remote? Plus I understand that it has a high build limit anyway.
In short.. No.
The long version.. Hell No. LOL
The limitations @snarkywriter explains applies to the entire world. In his example he uses the Triangle of Death. Which is VERY appropriate and instantly relatable to anyone having played for more than 2hrs. hehehe
But it applies to the entire F04 world. Spectacle Island, because of it's location is slightly less susceptible to the 36 grid buffer, but Warwick and the Castle both will just start to load while standing close to the SI build area closest to them.
But, the 128 resource limit still applies. Go over that and you'll have issues. Even getting to close to that limit can cause issues. Especially if you just pop in to check things then leave. the UFOP tries to mitigate the issue, but on large settlements it to fails because the core program just can't deal with that much load.
 
@snarkywriter BLOODY AWESOME article!!!
BUT... I didn't learn nuffin! hehehhehehe!!!!
Just kidding.. very well written and perfectly explained!!!
One other factor to take into account is the AI pathing.
That alone can cause CTD. Been there done that. ugg!

RotC Settlements have the same problem Transfer Settlements has, only MUCH worse. When importing a blueprint or launching a RotC City Plan, the navmesh takes an insane hit. Which causes the game to do a massive recalculation to make the pathing work correctly. (overly simplified)
TS Blueprints are normally much better navmesh wise. RotC plans are generally not built by "experienced players" hence the abundance of nav helpers where a slight change would make them unnecessary.

Okay.. starting to ramble! LOL
 
This thread is indeed VERY interesting. I think it explains so well that should be putted on the SS website/wiki, so users could know beforehand that they should not build the three settlements at once.

Btw, the new optimized city plans could be the perfect solution to this problem, since they cap the population below the vanilla max. Does someone already tried to build the three of them using the optimized city plans to see if crashes still occurs?

edit: now I finally can understand why everytime that I view the "Workshop" tab at the pipboy, all my settlements shows the "!" icon and shortage of food/water/defense, and when I fast travel there, the ! disappers and all the shortages of that settlement are gone.
 
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So Spectacle Island might be a good place to go whole-hog, because it's relatively remote? Plus I understand that it has a high build limit anyway.
No. It generally only loads either the north or south sides, and it loads both The Castle and Warwick once you get too close. So, you'll be there watch half of the Island chugging away with power and defense shortages, because the other half didn't load, while The Castle or Warick is now rendering away. It's really bugging me right now.

RotC plans are generally not built by "experienced players" hence the abundance of nav helpers where a slight change would make them unnecessary.
Ahem ...
 
This thread is indeed VERY interesting. I think it explains so well that should be putted on the SS website/wiki, so users could know beforehand that they should not build the three settlements at once.

Btw, the new optimized city plans could be the perfect solution to this problem, since they cap the population below the vanilla max. Does someone already tried to build the three of them using the optimized city plans to see if crashes still occurs?
Er, system dependent. I have a lot of settlements in the triangle of death. My system can handle 6 simultaneously in that area OK, using the complex plans (I have an excessive amount of RAM, and Fallout will happily hit 8GB in play). I sure wouldn't do it on XBox though.

But let's be honest here - no one is going to read anything we put on the wiki that says "do triangle of death settlements one at a time". They'll just go and kick them all off and expect everything to be fine, and when the engine shits itself, they'll complain anyway.
 
Er, system dependent. I have a lot of settlements in the triangle of death. My system can handle 6 simultaneously in that area OK, using the complex plans (I have an excessive amount of RAM, and Fallout will happily hit 8GB in play). I sure wouldn't do it on XBox though.

But let's be honest here - no one is going to read anything we put on the wiki that says "do triangle of death settlements one at a time". They'll just go and kick them all off and expect everything to be fine, and when the engine shits itself, they'll complain anyway.

So maybe an ingame message if the user selected the Low/medium settings in the performance wizard? Then when the player selects the city plan at one of these 3 settlements, the code checks if there is at least one of them already built and displays a message along the lines of "Building more than one City Plan too close to each other can cause your game to crash (check the Wiki for more info). Are you sure?". Of course the users who uses the Ultra preset shouldn't see the message. Just an idea!
 
Then when the player selects the city plan at one of these 3 settlements
It's not those 3 settlements specifically. It's really any combination of close settlements. No doubt you've seen every man and has dog has a Sanctuary plan. Even I have one slowly getting made.

It's more of a self-control issue for players, as you can actually replicate the crashes without using sim-settlements - if you really like settlement building. Just go sprinting through several close settlements.
 
It's not those 3 settlements specifically. It's really any combination of close settlements.
Yeap. Since I had a few minutes on my lunch break and it's come up several times, I went ahead and added a section on this to the original post.

I'll reply to the other posts in the thread when I get home this evening. I just wanted to get the update in before too many more people read it.:ok
 
It's not those 3 settlements specifically. It's really any combination of close settlements. No doubt you've seen every man and has dog has a Sanctuary plan. Even I have one slowly getting made.

It's more of a self-control issue for players, as you can actually replicate the crashes without using sim-settlements - if you really like settlement building. Just go sprinting through several close settlements.
Yeap. Since I had a few minutes on my lunch break and it's come up several times, I went ahead and added a section on this to the original post.

I'll reply to the other posts in the thread when I get home this evening. I just wanted to get the update in before too many more people read it.:ok

Right... Tbh I knew that wasn't only with the triangle of death, but I totally forgot that when I wrote my post. my bad.
So basically... Bethesda created a system FULL of bugs and left to us players do the dirty work to try to make it work as it should in the first place... I'm not surprised!
But the way I played this game since it's launch is: *game finishes loading* ... *open workshop mode soon as I can* Oops, I forgot to open the door *leaves workshop mode, open door*... *enter workshop mode again* damn I forgot to check something on my pipboy *leaves workshop mode*... close pipboy... *enter workshop mode*. You get the idea. Now I have to teach myself to let the game running for 10 minutes before playing... Oh well.
 
This article very definitely has my stamp of approval and I'm fairly knowledgeable about how the performance systems in Fallout 4 work. If you want that level of detail on precombines and previs and how they ALSO relate to this problem I've got a thread on Nexus about that. Though it's not nearly as well written. :D

Thread stickied.
 
So basically... Bethesda created a system FULL of bugs and left to us players do the dirty work to try to make it work as it should in the first place... I'm not surprised!
....Now I have to teach myself to let the game running for 10 minutes before playing... Oh well.
Actually no, Bethesda didn't create a system of bugs (well, I mean they did, but this isn't what happened here). This system was intentionally designed the way it is for very good reasons (*cough*console/low-endPC's*cough*). Snarkywriter doesn't really go into the precombines/previs system but it works hand in hand with the systems that are covered in this thread for performance overall. The only thing about this system that could be argued is buggy is portions of the workshop scripts and how they process settlement resources for reporting in the HUD and pipboy. UF4OP team has done their best to improve this. I explain why its a problem below.

However the other main problem, as you've figured out Zonary, is user habits. Yes I think Bethesda should've thought a bit more about how users will play, especially those of us who are ADHD and perpetually doing the in/out of workshop mode dance, running into a settlement for 30 seconds and leaving again, etc. But also consider that this whole system is unique, Fallout 4 is the first time a system like this has ever been implemented in any of their games and I think overall they've done a pretty amazing job getting it to work as well as they did the first time out.

I would argue however that you don't necessarily need to force yourself to spend 10 minutes letting the game run before playing. In fact just waiting in some random non-settlement location for 10 minutes does nothing. The important waiting is done in settlement doing nothing every time you visit. In most cases (assuming you're not already pushing your hardware too far as Snarky describes) just waiting 60 seconds is actually sufficient.

Part of the reason for the "bugginess" of the workshop reporting system is actually a result of the history of scripting for the Fallout/Elder Scrolls games to begin with. All the games made with the GECK or CK (gamebryo engine) use a home grown language specific to their games and they add on to it as necessary to update it for whatever new functions they need each game. The current scripting language in use in Fallout 4 wasn't even used in the older Fallout games, it was created for the first time for Skyrim. So the functionality added to the language for the purposes of Fallout 4 settlements is maybe not the most efficient means of scripting workshop reporting when taking into account typical user behavior.

Finally remember that Sim Settlements is pushing the scripting language, the entire performance system (including everything in Snarky's posts), and our hardware well beyond Bethesda's intended limits. Almost certainly well beyond the limits they had even imagined might be hit by mod authors. Kinggath and the dev/support team realized just how far past the reasonable limits we'd gone after publishing Rise of the Commonwealth which has been rocky to say the least. We now have the optimized city plans and a much finer appreciation of just how far one can push before we break the whole thing.
 
Precombines/Previs
The other half of the performance system described by Snarkywriter

The technical details (only the first page of the thread is important, don't let the length scare you)

Short user friendly video on precombines
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Actually no, Bethesda didn't create a system of bugs (well, I mean they did, but this isn't what happened here). This system was intentionally designed the way it is for very good reasons (*cough*console/low-endPC's*cough*). Snarkywriter doesn't really go into the precombines/previs system but it works hand in hand with the systems that are covered in this thread for performance overall. The only thing about this system that could be argued is buggy is portions of the workshop scripts and how they process settlement resources for reporting in the HUD and pipboy. UF4OP team has done their best to improve this. I explain why its a problem below.

However the other main problem, as you've figured out Zonary, is user habits. Yes I think Bethesda should've thought a bit more about how users will play, especially those of us who are ADHD and perpetually doing the in/out of workshop mode dance, running into a settlement for 30 seconds and leaving again, etc. But also consider that this whole system is unique, Fallout 4 is the first time a system like this has ever been implemented in any of their games and I think overall they've done a pretty amazing job getting it to work as well as they did the first time out.

I would argue however that you don't necessarily need to force yourself to spend 10 minutes letting the game run before playing. In fact just waiting in some random non-settlement location for 10 minutes does nothing. The important waiting is done in settlement doing nothing every time you visit. In most cases (assuming you're not already pushing your hardware too far as Snarky describes) just waiting 60 seconds is actually sufficient.

Part of the reason for the "bugginess" of the workshop reporting system is actually a result of the history of scripting for the Fallout/Elder Scrolls games to begin with. All the games made with the GECK or CK (gamebryo engine) use a home grown language specific to their games and they add on to it as necessary to update it for whatever new functions they need each game. The current scripting language in use in Fallout 4 wasn't even used in the older Fallout games, it was created for the first time for Skyrim. So the functionality added to the language for the purposes of Fallout 4 settlements is maybe not the most efficient means of scripting workshop reporting when taking into account typical user behavior.

Finally remember that Sim Settlements is pushing the scripting language, the entire performance system (including everything in Snarky's posts), and our hardware well beyond Bethesda's intended limits. Almost certainly well beyond the limits they had even imagined might be hit by mod authors. Kinggath and the dev/support team realized just how far past the reasonable limits we'd gone after publishing Rise of the Commonwealth which has been rocky to say the least. We now have the optimized city plans and a much finer appreciation of just how far one can push before we break the whole thing.

Well said, my friend, well said. It's true, they created a well designed and cool system for us. I realize that instead of putting the blame, I should be thanking them. Its indeed AMAZING what capable modders like you (let me grab this opportunity to thank you for creating CREative clutter, I love this mod and use it to decorate every player-home I make!) and many others on this forum and/or nexus can do with the CK. And Bethesda is the only company (at least that I know of) to develop a Creation Kit and let everyone use it to mod their game. Imagine what modders could do with a "GTA V Creation Kit"... the mods would be INSANE! lol
Ok I'm going very off-topic, sorry. Thanks again for explaining. Just one more question, I have to wait for 60seconds only after I arrive at the settlement or everytime I enter/close workshop mode as well (since it launches the Workshopparentscript as well)?
 
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Just one more question, I have to wait for 60seconds only after I arrive at the settlement or everytime I enter/close workshop mode as well (since it launches the Workshopparentscript as well)?
For the purposes of Sim Settlements and general vanilla workshop purposes just standing still in the settlement without triggering your pipboy or the workshop menu for 60 seconds, maybe up to 2 minutes if your hardware is lower end should generally be sufficient. Of course this assumes that you haven't significantly blown past vanilla triangle build limits and vanilla settler limits and aren't running some beastly script mods like War of the Commonwealth.

Also thanks for the compliment and I hope you didn't think I was scolding you for your previous post! I really wasn't, I just thought it was a common misconception and an explanation would be good. :)
 
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